Was it a big scandal when Madeline Kahn left 20th Century?- Page 2

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 7:08pm

nobodyhome, I can only tell you what I saw and heard and how the story was told to me. I saw the dull performance at the last preview; if there were critics there, I doubt they were impressed. Perhaps Kahn simply got caught up in the opening night excitement and it had nothing to do with critics.

Yes, I know Prince claims the story. But long before he published that, I heard the same story attributed to Ruth Mitchell by several members of Prince's staff. (My husband worked there.) So I tend to think Prince appropriated the memory and recast himself in a central role. (And for all I know Mitchell may have been delivering a message from Prince, so perhaps he was indeed involved.) In the end, the point was Kahn's response.

That Marlon Brando was sheer genius--but only in one performance per week--has been reported by so many sources, I didn't think it required attribution.

Updated On: 7/24/12 at 07:08 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 7:18pm

henrik, in addition to my own experience, Kahn's inconsistency has been reported numerous places, including by Prince himself.

But I wasn't clear about the score. Although I wouldn't put it in my Top 20, I love the score and have played the recording hundreds of times. (Even though, frankly, I'm not that fond of Kahn's thin voice, there's no question that she's hilarious.)

The score only works if one gets the opera parody and the reason for it. Otherwise, it's a lot of singing, "Yes, yes, yes! No, no, no!", etc. And to get the parody, the characters of Oscar and Lily have to be of operatic size.

That was clear with Judy Kaye and I wish we had more of her on record. But in the performance I saw with Kahn, her lack of energy and interest so reduced the character that I didn't get the point. It just seemed like a mediocre operetta with a visual design that demanded (and promised) 1930's-style jazz.

So when Prince and others say Kahn was inconsistent, it was more than a matter of her missing a few laughs. In my experience, she rendered the entire style of the show incomprehensible. One could still follow the plot, but the overall concept wasn't apparent. No doubt it was an entirely different show on Kahn's "good days".

Updated On: 7/24/12 at 07:18 PM

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 7:37pm

Apropos of nothing, Kahn singing Glitter and Be Gay is pretty great http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDtwp3cB2yU

[chrisampm2]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 8:05pm

Thanks so much GavestonPS. I've heard about the Kahn firing since I was a kid and this is the first time I understand why her inconsistency was so damaging. Makes perfect sense.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/24/12 at 10:01pm

You're welcome, chris. To be perfectly accurate, I don't actually know whether Kahn was fired, quit or left by mutual consent. I'm sure I was told by the same people who were telling the opening night story, but at this point, I don't recall. She was obviously unhappy, so being fired or quitting may have amounted to the same thing.

And just to reiterate, I still think Madeleine Kahn is responsible for at least three of the funniest, yet touching performances in film history. She was quite literally a comic genius.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 3:07am

Gaveston, just to clarify: I was not trying to cast doubt on your account of what you saw. I wasn't thrilled myself with the performance I saw Kahn give about a week after the opening (though it didn't seem to me that she was walking through it or lacked energy exactly). I was just pointing out that by 1978, the critics generally attended previews. Indeed, I believe one or two critics even mentioned in their reviews of On the Twentieth Century that they'd seen a preview (and I think those were the critics who had been somewhat disappointed by Kahn and they seemed to be trying to say that perhaps she was just not at her best that night).

And I also don't doubt that it was, in fact, Ruth Mitchell who had that encounter with Kahn. I just wanted to mention for those who might be reading this thread and not know about the situation that Prince had told the story in an interview in which he said he had the conversation with Kahn.

As for Brando, I would appreciate it if you could cite a source or two for Brando walking through all but one or two performances a week because I don't think I've ever read that. I may well be insufficiently knowledgeable about this so I do hope you can help me out by pointing me to a source that I haven't read. Everyone I've ever read or heard speak about the production, speaking of people who actually saw it, raved about him (except, of course, Brooks Atkinson who mostly raved about Tandy but liked Brando a lot also). I don't recall ever hearing people anyone talk about seeing him walking rhrough it or seeming bored. So please be kind and help me out here.

The only person I've read who said something like that was Tandy, but even she just said that he'd be brilliant one night and bored the next, which isn't quite as bad as being bored seven times a week. And she may not have had the best perspective on how he appeared to the audience. Even in the book in which Tandy's quoted about this (When Blanche Met Brando), it sounds like what he was doing may have been intended to provoke her.

The author of that book seems more on Brando's side so he may be slanting it in Brando's direction, but what I get from that part of the book is that Tandy perceived him as bored but he was changing things to keep it alive (and to keep her off her guard), and that drove her crazy because she wanted it to be consistent, and she interpreted his changes as coming from boredom.

Redfield says of his performance in Arms and the Man that "he was brilliant once or twice a week," and makes it clear that in that instance, it was all too clear to the audience that he was bored at most performances.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/25/12 at 8:15pm

nobodyhome, I thought you and I were both working to examine a piece of folklore and I took no offense whatsoever at your corrections and additions to my memory. I'm very sorry if my response seemed defensive.

(I think it's likelier the original incident involved Mitchell mostly because folklore tends to grow larger over time, not shrink. Kahn snapping at the famous Hal Prince actually improves the story, so it seems more likely that the truth was Mitchell and the "improvement" was Prince. But that's hardly "scientific" proof. For all I know, both Ruthie and Hal were standing there at the time.)

Re Brando, I'll look, but I think you have your source in Tandy. "Every other night" or "one performance out of eight" are both approximations, I'm sure, as nobody was actually keeping score. But let me see what I can find...


ETA: Here's a VANITY FAIR article where others reminisce about Brando in STREETCAR. (See top of Page 2.) Even Brando complained of his boredom. To be fair, his castmates say the same boredom sometimes led him to find even more interesting choices, so it wasn't always a bad thing.

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2005/03/brando200503



Updated On: 7/25/12 at 08:15 PM

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 12:49am

Oh, good. Glad that you took no offense. Sometimes it's hard to tell these things in online conversation.

I agree that the Kahn "don't expect me to do that eight times a week" incident probably did happen with Mitchell, not Prince.

Thank you for the link to the Vanity Fair piece. Very interesting.

[Leadingplayer]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 12:54am

maybe Kahn was joking in the 8 shows a week quote...does anyone really bring all the energy to other performances that they do on an Opening? (just a thought...no idea really!)

[chrisampm2]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 1:38am

The performer's job is to find a consistent level of focus. Now that critics come to ~ a week of performances opening is more like the rest of the whole first month or so of a run.

I have to admit I've started liking shows more when they've settled in. I've rarely felt opening night has been the show at its most effective. My favorite time to see a show - at the one month mark. And the final night of the original cast.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/26/12 at 2:55pm

maybe Kahn was joking in the 8 shows a week quote...does anyone really bring all the energy to other performances that they do on an Opening? (just a thought...no idea really!)

I think that's certainly possible. Kahn was a very funny woman. That the story gained such traction, however, suggests others found more truth in it than humor.

***

Absolutely no offense taken, nobodyhome. Thanks again for your contributions.

[Leadingplayer]

Posted: 7/27/12 at 1:44am

How was Madeline in Boom Boom Room? That only ran a month....and then was done a year later off-Broadway. Odd.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/27/12 at 7:57pm

I don't know, LeadingPlayer. Nothing I ever read or heard about Kahn in TWENTIETH CENTURY ever referred to the earlier play or there being any problems with Kahn in it. Didn't she attract Hollywood's attention pretty soon after the earlier play? She must have been sensational!

[chrisampm2]

Posted: 7/27/12 at 9:20pm

If memory serves, Kenneth Turan's book on the history of The Public cites lots of problems with In the Boom Boom Room and Kahn's performance, along with most other elements, was not heralded.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/27/12 at 10:22pm

I stand corrected then. Thank you, chris.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/30/12 at 3:10am

Boom Boom Room was a limited engagement, the first production of Papp's short-lived tenure at Lincoln Center. The production did have a lot of problems, with Papp firing director Julie Bovasso, and Julie Newmar being fired from the cast.

I was told by someone who's working on a bio of Kahn that she regarded it as the best work of her career, despite all the problems with the production (which are recounted, as mentioned by chrisampm2, in excruciating detail in Kenneth Turan's Free for All).

I saw it, and I do have some memories of it. I particularly remember Peter Bartlett and Mary Woronov (who replaced Newmar) being terrific, and there being one fascinating scene with Charlotte Rae, who otherwise seemed totally out of place and lost. And that Kahn did try very hard to not be funny.

Paper Moon opened in May 1973. Boom Boom Room opened in November 1973, and the acclaim she received for the film probably was part of the reason why she was cast (over Julie Bovasso's objections). And Blazing Saddles would already have been shot by the time Boom Boom Room started rehearsals.

The reason the play came back at the Public the following year was to give it another chance in a new production since there was little question that the first one had been botched.

Updated On: 7/30/12 at 03:10 AM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/30/12 at 5:37pm

And Kahn had done the WHAT'S UP DOC? film in 1972. I've always thought that was her funniest role, PAPER MOON her most touching.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 7/31/12 at 1:34am

Thanks. I thought What's Up, Doc? was her first major film appearance, but for some reason I didn't see it on imdb when I looked (though it's right there).

Of course, before that was De Düva.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/31/12 at 3:27am

^^^A film I've never heard of. WTF!

And it's available on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X2QmLWWxq4


Updated On: 7/31/12 at 03:27 AM

[morosco]

Posted: 7/31/12 at 9:40am

Who else but Madeline could get away with the Young Frankenstein line, "See? Did you see? I put a special hamper in the bathroom just for your shirts. And the other one is just for socks and poopoo undies".

[morosco]

Posted: 10/9/12 at 6:46pm

Judy Kaye sings
Never from ON THE 20TH CENTURY

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 10/9/12 at 7:10pm

Thank you for that, morosco! I don't know whether it was her age, the key, the piano or the TV environment, but I'm not sure that clip fully does her justice.

I would encourage anyone to get one of Judy Kaye's solo CDs. She sings a variety of songs and her tone is much richer and not so shrill.

Poor show, though, if "Never" is what they had for marketing purposes! I'm not knocking the song in the show, I just don't think it's strong seller as a stand-alone number.

[sondheimfan2]

Posted: 10/9/12 at 8:38pm

Watched the video: Kaye sounds great, but I find nothing comedic about her approach.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 10/10/12 at 8:27am

That isn't how she played the song in character in the show.

She's dressed as herself, singing into a hand-mike and without the other two characters who sing the trio in the show. I still find her dryly amusing, but if she had played the over-the-top Lily Garland in that television context, she would have been funny--but not in the good way.

[Kad]

Posted: 10/10/12 at 11:21am

The thing is, I don't think the show really has songs that can work out of the context of the show, which is why you rarely see them performed in concerts, etc. I think numbers like "Veronique", "Babbette", and "The Legacy" are really fantastic solos... but outside of an understanding of the show, they're confusing.