Miss Saigon????

[youwillbefound2]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 1:57pm

I saw Miss Saigon recently and I thought it was an amazing show, but something bothered me towards the end. This has probably been discussed before, but I want to hear other peoples' opinions on this. Throughout Act 2, especially towards the end, I had mixed feelings about Chris. 
When he's fighting with Ellen he says something along the lines of how he only fell in love with Kim because he was in Saigon and she was the only good thing he could find or something along those lines. And then he chooses Ellen over Kim and decides to leave her and their SON in Bangkok. That really made me hate Chris. 
I also felt Chris and Kim's relationship was almost too fast. What if Kim didn't even really love Chris but she thought she did because no one else had been nice to her like that? She's naive. Of course when he asks to take her to America she's gonna say yes, she doesn't know any better. Was Kim manipulated by Chris? It seems like he just CHOSE that Kim was going to be his love after singing a song about it. And going back to Chris leaving Kim and Tam in Bangkok, it was him who decided he was gonna take Kim to America, he's the one who came up with the idea, not Kim, so isn't it his responsibility to take her?
Before I saw the show, I never thought that Chris "abandoned" Kim. I just thought that he had no choice and was dragged to the helicopter by force. When I watched the Manila version of the show on YouTube, Chris was punched by John, who dragged him to the helicopter. But in the Broadway revival, Chris willingly goes with John to the helicopter which really bothers me. And then he screams Kim's name in the helicopter? 
So am I the only one bothered by this or does everyone that sees the show hate/have mixed feelings about Chris? Did they write his character like this on purpose and want the audience to have mixed feelings or was this unintentional? 

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 2:02pm

That punch wasn't unique to the Manila production. I believe it was standard in all the first replica Cameron Mackintosh productions.

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 2:13pm

I have seen many versions of Miss Saigon (from original Broadway to revival West End and Broadway and others in between (touring and local productions) and that scene in the helicopter to me has always been John forcing Chris to get on the helicopter, while Chris is yelling Kim's name.

Also he is married to Ellen, while to Kim it is a pretend marriage I see how he is staying with Ellen.  Chris loved Kim while he was in Saigon and even years after.  I think in the show Chris sings for 3 years  he felt lost back in the US.  Then he said it's time to move on and he met Ellen.  Ellen also helped Chris move on after the sadness after the war.

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 2:14pm

In the Broadway revival, John pushes Chris to the ground and threatens him at gunpoint to board the helicopter. It's not that "willing" of a decision. 

[Lot666]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 2:30pm

youwillbefound2 said: "he chooses Ellen over Kim and decides to leave her and their SON in Bangkok."

If I recall correctly, Chris and Ellen "discuss" (sing about) a few different options, including moving to Bangkok and sending Tam to an "American" school. Ellen also indicates that, if it was only Tam they were dealing with, they would take him back to the States, but she's understandably uncomfortable with the idea of bringing Kim to the States as well. It's a very difficult situation for all involved and I don't think it's accurate to say that Chris "decides to leave [Kim] and their SON in Bankok".

youwillbefound2 said: "I also felt Chris and Kim's relationship was almost too fast"

You're not wrong about this one, but it's fairly common practice in musical theatre to launch a grand passion within the scope of one or two songs. For example, in Phantom of the Opera, Raoul is quite smitten after seeing Christine sing one song and by the next morning he's in love. Similarly, in Les Miserables, Marius basically just sees Cosette and instantaneously declares his love for her. Time in musical theatre is often compressed. 


youwillbefound2 said: "Before I saw the show, I never thought that Chris "abandoned" Kim. I just thought that he had no choice and was dragged to the helicopter by force. When I watched the Manila version of the show on YouTube, Chris was punched by John, who dragged him to the helicopter. But in the Broadway revival, Chris willingly goes with John to the helicopter which really bothers me. And then he screams Kim's name in the helicopter?"

I believe John threatens Chris with physical force (and a gun?) to get him into the helicopter. I don't have the lyrics to "Kim's Nightmare/The Fall of Saigon" in front of me at the moment, but I think there's a passage about the ambassador ordering all Americans onto the chopper immediately as it will be the last transport out. Chris does not go on board willingly and this is why he screams in anguish, "Kim! I'm sorry Kim!".

Updated On: 6/27/17 at 02:30 PM

[youwillbefound2]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 2:50pm

Okay, I now understand that Chris didn't go to the helicopter willingly. I guess when John helped Chris up from the ground after shoving him, and Chris took his hand I interpreted it as Chris saying, "Okay, you're right, let's go."

But I'm still confused about this: Did Chris EVER love Kim or was it like he said, how he was in Saigon and didn't know who he was and she was the only good thing he found there. 

I guess you could say he did love her by how he has nightmares about her and how he reacted when she shot herself, but that could just be PTSD and guilt. 

I also just found it tragic how Chris could choose to move on with Ellen (probably not emotionally though) and keep living his life, but Kim would always be stuck in Bangkok praying for the day he comes back to get her. I mean, for three whole years all her hope was pinned on him while he was able to get married to another woman. But that's the point of the story, right?

[SeanD2]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 3:00pm

youwillbefound2 said:
But I'm still confused about this: Did Chris EVER love Kim or was it like he said, how he was in Saigon and didn't know who he was and she was the only good thing he found there. "

Chris slept with her for a week after paying for her. He may have liked her. He may have enjoyed her physically. But to expect a lifelong love to come from that scenario is very naive.

[youwillbefound2]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 3:03pm

SeanD2 said: "youwillbefound2 said:
But I'm still confused about this: Did Chris EVER love Kim or was it like he said, how he was in Saigon and didn't know who he was and she was the only good thing he found there. "

Chris slept with her for a week after paying for her. He may have liked her. He may have enjoyed her physically. But to expect a lifelong love to come from that scenario is very naive.

 

"

I think it was more than that if he was offering to take her back to America with him. He sings a song about how he can't get her face out of his mind. He thinks she's different from all the other girls at the club. 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 3:16pm

People fall in love under extreme situations....this is the only kind thing EITHER of them experienced (at least during the war), so it certainly SEEMS like love - and who's to say it isnt?  You also have to remember, they are very young and out of their element.

[SeanD2]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 4:40pm

dramamama611 said: "People fall in love under extreme situations....this is the only kind thing EITHER of them experienced (at least during the war), so it certainly SEEMS like love - and who's to say it isnt?  You also have to remember, they are very young and out of their element.

 

"

Only in this revival does Chris ever use the word "love". In the original script he never says anything beyond that he wanted to save and protect her which is a direct call back to "Why God, Why" where he questions God and says he can't save her, no one can. He tries, but fails. No mention of love.

 

We also don't even know if Chris tried to save her during the embassy evacuation. The sequence is entitled "Kim's Nightmare" for a reason. It's not an objective retelling of how he left, but rather Kim's belief of what happened. For all we know Chris was happy to leave her behind as opposed to risking his life to get her out.

Updated On: 6/27/17 at 04:40 PM

[Ado Annie D'Ysquith]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 5:02pm

Well, one can argue that Chris is certainly written more sympathetically than his Madama Butterfly counterpart. In the opera, they make it very clear that Pinkerton is mostly using Cio-Cio. I find both pieces equally sad, but for drastically different reasons. And that's because of how both works' core relationships are displayed.

[A0326T]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 5:36pm

These are characters drawn from the ugliness of war and real emotions are thwarted by greed, death and horrors of their surroundings.  So I feel real love did not exist but only the fight to stay alive and perhaps, to escape. 

[Pauly3]

Posted: 6/27/17 at 5:53pm

youwillbefound2 said: "When he's fighting with Ellen he says something along the lines of how he only fell in love with Kim because he was in Saigon and she was the only good thing he could find or something along those lines. And then he chooses Ellen over Kim and decides to leave her and their SON in Bangkok. That really made me hate Chris. 
"

And then he chooses Ellen over Kim...?  What time frame are you referring to?  At the time of Ellen learning about Kim, Chris does not decide anything.  At the time Chris left Saigon, he could not have known he would have a son.  He didn't decide much of anything there either.  In the three years in between, he had no clue if Kim survived - or if she did, where she was.  He (mostly) moved on with his life, and that doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing to have done under those circumstances.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/28/17 at 7:12am

dramamama611 said: "People fall in love under extreme situations....this is the only kind thing EITHER of them experienced (at least during the war), so it certainly SEEMS like love - and who's to say it isnt?  You also have to remember, they are very young and out of their element."

I agree, just like in real life, people jump into relationships, sharing their whole life and body with the other person form the moment they meet. Especially in this situation, with the tragedy of war, it can be even more intense. They can't really know eachother well (I always say you start to really know a person after about 2 years). So the "butterflies/falling in love" part usually lasts for a few months, and then changes into to something else/or not. Kim and Chris never had this chance, it only lasted for a week/few weeks, so in their minds their "connection" stayed in that first phase. Stress, trauma, being very young and falling in love, the short time period, all play parts in the way they handled it. 

 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/28/17 at 7:12am

dramamama611 said: "People fall in love under extreme situations....this is the only kind thing EITHER of them experienced (at least during the war), so it certainly SEEMS like love - and who's to say it isnt?  You also have to remember, they are very young and out of their element."

I agree, just like in real life, people jump into relationships, sharing their whole life and body with the other person form the moment they meet. Especially in this situation, with the tragedy of war, it can be even more intense. They can't really know eachother well (I always say you start to really know a person after about 2 years). So the "butterflies/falling in love" part usually lasts for a few months, and then changes into to something else/or not. Kim and Chris never had this chance, it only lasted for a week/few weeks, so in their minds their "connection" stayed in that first phase. Stress, trauma, being very young and falling in love, the short time period, all play parts in the way they handled it. 

 

Posted: 2/15/19 at 12:59pm

I know I'm way late coming to this discussion...ah like two years late...but I just saw this show last week in Cleveland and have been mesmerized by it.  I keep thinking that this show begs for a sequel and some of the things you mentioned in your post are exactly why.  I feel like there are so many unanswered questions...who was Chris once he got back to America?  How did he and Ellen find love?  and most importantly what happened when Chris and Ellen returned to that hotel room?  I have a feeling it wouldn't involve Ellen being thrilled that she now gets to be a new mommy...it's a BOY!

[Plannietink08]

Posted: 2/15/19 at 1:33pm

I've always looked at MISS SAIGON with a realistic eye. No doubt Kim and Chris' love was very real and very raw at the time. Like someone mentioned before, people fall in love in the worst kind of circumstances. You can love two different people for very different reasons and the person you end up marrying is rarely the person you'd consider your soulmate. 

I'd compare Kim and Chris' love to June and Nick's love in HANDMAIDS TALE. June has a husband in Canada but she's stuck in Gilead under the most oppressive regime so she clings to any sense of normality which happens to be Nick. Doesn't mean she doesn't love her husband any less it just means she fell in love with someone to cope with a horrific situation. 

In terms of what happens after the curtain closes I always assumed it was fairly obvious. Chris obviously buries Kim and takes Tam back to the US to raise him with Ellen. I imagine Ellen and Chris knew each other before the war, and Ellen having feelings before they even got married, but nothing ever happened between them. Ellen knew the men coming home would be damaged so she resigned herself to wait for Chris to get better. After a year, when he finally decides it's time to move on, there's a woman willing to accept his trauma and love him unconditionally so of course he'd jump at it.