The big ol' original musical debate

[emilyfaye48]

Posted: 2/2/12 at 11:52pm

I was chatting with a friend tonight about the whole original musical debate, because people love, love, love to rag on shows that are based on movies but we all know that 99% of musicals have source material of some kind. IMHO it doesn't matter what the source was so long as the final product is good.

Anyway! what I'm wondering is how many ORIGINAL musicals, with no source material whatsoever are even out there. My friend and I could only come up with Kwamina, and Starlight Express(thanks TOS), Next To Normal and Urinetown. What else!?

[staunchcharacter]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:06am

25th annual putnam county spelling bee

[Johnnycantdecide]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:09am

Last Five Years, Chess, Follies, Hair, Passing Strange, In the Heights, The Rocky Horror Show, Taboo, and (kinda) Sunday in the Park With George.

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 12:09 AM

[broadwaybabytn]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:10am

Book of Mormon
Do Assassins and Pacific Overtures count?

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 12:10 AM

[emilyfaye48]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:15am

such a good question! See that's a whole other debate, because if we're saying an 'original' musical can't have source material than ARE we scratching all musicals based on lives, or not? What is the musical that's based on a life is heavily using a memoir of that life, a la Gypsy? And what about Dreamgirls? And even The Last 5 Years, which I do think is totally original but, but, but it's based on a life, the authors life, but then it's so nit picky because at the end of the day everything is inspired by someone's life. you know?

[broadwaybabytn]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:19am

I think Gypsy is more on the fence than the other two I listed, because it is linear and based on a book, following the facts almost completely, while something like Assassins is independent of history, though it features historical figures.

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 12:19 AM

[broadwaybabytn]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:30am

Bella Are Ringing
Curtains
A Chorus Line
Jamaica
They're Playing Our Song (a bit autobiographical)
Rags
City of Angels
Do Re Mi
The Roar of The Greasepaint- The Smell of The Crowd
The Drowsy Chaperone
Mack & Mabel
In The Heights
Caroline, Or Change
[title of show]

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 12:30 AM

[emilyfaye48]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:32am

it's a very grey area! What about Bloody, Bloody Andrew Jackson?

I just thought of more Anything Goes, Hair, Anyone Can Whistle, and The Act (I'm just going through itunes now)

Updated On: 2/3/12 at 12:32 AM

[broadwaybabytn]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:35am

Finian's Rainbow is one of the few original musicals of the "Golden Age".

I'm glad you thought to mention Anyone Can Whistle, I didn't think of that.

[emilyfaye48]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:42am

You're so right about the Golden Age! That's what drives me nuts about this whole thing is that people always say "why don't they make more original musicals, like they used to" WHEN! I mean way, way, way back when pre-Show Boat things were more original as in, had no source material but the shows were all revues and had no story. I do think there are more musicals being made now with movies as their source but it's just a shift from when everything was adapted from plays or books.

And side note, I mean don't get me wrong, I love Finian's Rainbow and kudos on being original but that show is crazy!

[emilyfaye48]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:53am

By The Beautiful Sea
Can-Can (?)
Follies
Song & Dance

[bobbybaby85]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 2:14am

Updated On: 2/19/18 at 02:14 AM

[allofmylife]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 2:33am

On Your Toes, Funny Face, Lady Be Good, Of Thee I Sing

[AADA81]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 4:16am

Actually, "Follies" is based on something that was a backstage mystery, or murder mystery it might have been. I think it was called "The Girls Upstairs" when it was in development as a straight play, but in any case it was totally turned around into something else by the authors.

Updated On: 2/4/12 at 04:16 AM

[Edna Turnblad]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 7:48am

But when talking about Assassins, we have to ask ourselves how much can it be inspired by something before it's considered not "original"? I believe the only things that came out of that play were the opening idea of a shooting gallery and the title. So, does that still allow Assassins to be original?

[chewy5000]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 8:11am

"Follies" WAS "The Girls Upstairs"

However, they were both based on the Fiddler On The Roof reunion party.

[Ed_Mottershead]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 10:07am

I don't think Annie Get Your Gun had any source material. Certainly not the movie with Barbara Stanwyck. Also, DuBarry Was a Lady, Panama Hattie, Girl Crazy, Me and Juliet, The Music Man, and Bye, Bye Birdie.

[Owen22]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 12:59pm

Wow...this made me ask myself, why do I have such a prejudice against new musicals that are NOT based on preexisting source material...?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 1:13pm

Allegro
Brooklyn
In My Life
Glory Days

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 4:39pm

Assassins is based on a play that Stephen Sondheim read when reading submissions for some kind of drama workshop.

I believe credit is even given in the libretto.

The credit is "based on an idea by Charles Gilbert, Jr". Sondheim explains in FINISHING THE HAT that all they took from Gilbert was the idea of opening the show with a shooting gallery.

I think ASSASSINS has to be considered original, despite its use of historical fact (and the one image from Gilbert). Every author takes elements from his experience for every new work. Whether those elements come from historical research or his personal life matters not.

There used to be a writing class exercise where a student was asked to draw an animal that nobody had every seen before. When the drawing was complete, the teacher would point out that the "unique" animal actually had the head of a lion, the neck of a giraffe, the tail of a horse, etc. The point was that every work that is new and original is actually just a new arrangement of preexisting elements.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 4:42pm

And while we're on the subject of the so-called Golden Age, aren't ALLEGRO and ME AND JULIET original? (I mean not based on another source. Despite ALLEGRO's experimental form, I would argue that the problem with both plays is that their plots are cliche and predictable.)

(Oops. Mister Matt got to ALLEGRO before me. So let me throw in CALL ME MADAM: inspired by a living person, but fictionalized, with an original story.) Updated On: 2/3/12 at 04:42 PM

[Smaxie]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 4:46pm

Exhibit A

[bobbybaby85]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 4:49pm

Charles Gilbert Jr. Actually Talks About Assassins Updated On: 2/19/18 at 04:49 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:09pm

From Sondheim's LOOK, I MADE A HAT (sorry, I cited the wrong book above), p. 111:

(Gilbert's play) "turned out to be the story of a disillusioned Vietnam veteran who, urged on by a mysterious and symbolic figure called the Fat Man, becomes a presidential assassin. In between episodes in the protagonist's journey were quotations from some of the assassins who had targeted presidents throughout our history, and the opening scene took place in a shooting gallery...."

So Sondheim and Weidman took (a) the title and (b) the idea of opening in a shooting gallery. Neither a title nor an idea are copyrightable, so there's a strong legal argument to be made that they didn't have to give Gilbert ANY credit. However, we'll all agree they did the honorable thing.

But the musical we all know as ASSASSINS is "based on an idea by", which is not the same thing as "based on the play/novel/film". It is NOT an adaptation by any fair definition of the word.

(ETA bobby, thank you for sharing Gilbert's comment on the subject. Understandably, he sees the Sondheim ASSASSINS in terms of what is similar to his own play. But most of what he mentions (projections?) were likely to turn up in any treatment of the theme.) Updated On: 2/3/12 at 05:09 PM

[bobbybaby85]

Posted: 2/3/12 at 5:29pm

Updated On: 2/19/18 at 05:29 PM