Tenor or Baritone? What is really my range? I'm confused about this and more... help!

[JayKid]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 1:56am

Well didn't know where to post this, but seems these boards in general have lots of information around em and did do the search looking for stuff on baritones and tenors, but all the info never agreed, plus still confused. So now comes this post...

Well not an experienced singer or actor, but this spring did the musical for my senior year and had lots of fun. I just loved the singing and getting to act my part and the whole thing. I played Enjolras and well, it was just great. Yet, we had a short time and it was just hit the damn notes and that's it(went up to G). Not much about voice types and ranges, I did it and that was that. Then onto this summer and Seussical and Wickersham Brother 1. It's high... I have to sing up to the high C and also Bb. And well after goin through this I decided to figure out everything about singing and see what I needed to know.

So first I figured out my lowest note - A over an octave under middle C. Anything under can't come out and even that A is more of a low talking voice. So I got that down... now my high end. I can hit an A in my chest voice, it is belted and I guess a bit strained to get there, but I can hit it and my voice doesn't really hurt or anything. I do have to be loud to go up to the G and A though. However, when I sing I'm usually a bit louder just because I'm kind of a loud guy in general...
so I can't help it

But now I'm stuck around belting and going froma belting A to a high C in falsetto, horrible change (Monkey Around - goes F - A - high C). So I try to figure out what to do to strengthen falsetto and find out guys have a head voice.

I asked the music lady for Seussical and she said I've probably done it without noticing and that guys do have 3 voices (head/chest/falsetto). She said I'm a belter though (I guess meaning that I am belting my notes rather than going into a head voice)... now I'm wondering if this is bad and if these notes I'm belting are even in my range and what my range is (upper parts).

So in general I'm confused (do know my lower limits and that I need a voice teacher tho!).

What is my range? My lowest note I can even make a sound with is an A below the C below middle C. When I sing a soft song the lower notes around the D to B below middle C are easier to sing softly, going up to D or E if I'm singing soft I can't be in chest without getting a bit loud. If it's uptempo I can get loud and the notes seem pretty low under A below middle C, but the notes B-F are pretty good than G and A I gotta really belt.

Then there is head voice, which I'm still clueless about?!?! I always thought it was the same as falsetto, guess I was wrong.

Oh and my timbre... well since I've heard this matters, I'll attempt at least explain my talking voice. I'm 18 and it hasn't matured... but isn't incredibly deep and rich. It's not girl or feminine either though, but I'd say it's a bit more on the higher side. It's not crystal clear like a kid or anything either, nor is it really raspy though... singing it probably gets a clearer sound I think and well, yea out of all the guys in Les Miserables and Seussical I have the loudest/strongest voices, I was louder when I wasn't mic'ed at times lol. That's best I can do with timbre tho, sorry.

But anyway, I'm confused... I'm starting to really enjoy this whole acting, singing and theatre stuff. I just don't know so much and want to learn and become a better singer.

So help please, I'd appreciate it.

First thing I wanna know is the notes in my range and if the belted ones are even there. What voice type I am and what I should be singing... and just whatever else you can answer or even think I should know. I just need help in general, since I am a bit clueless it seems.

Only thing I do know is I need a voice teacher (which I'll get soon).

Anywayz, please help and thanks in advance to anyone who helps.
Updated On: 7/20/05 at 01:56 AM

[shybwyguy]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 3:25am

The voice teacher will help you a lot.
But. You sound like a Lyric Baritone.
A true Tenor would have a solid C above midle C.
However... Tenors usually have a break, or register shift, somewhere between D and A, so you could be a Tenor with a weak/undeveloped top end.
If that is the case a good voice teacher would help tremendously.
Fortunatley most male musical theatre songs don't travel much past the High B flat. Some do but more don't.
Really do a lot of research for a Voice Teacher. And you should check into SPL(speech level singing).
Peace

[JayKid]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 3:57am

ok thanks... I guess I am probably around there. My thoughts were a baritone/tenor and I think from what I remember reading a lyric baritone is a higher sounding (more based on timbre maybe) baritone. I definetly think a voice teacher will help me the most.

And well found another messageboard that had stuff on SLS, speech level singing, and well one sentence there helped me a lot. I think I just was able to do head voice (altho softly since parents are sleeping).

Took my keyboard and played high C and hit the note in falsetto, purposely what I knew was falsetto and went down and of course it got hard lower and was a huge difference when I had to switch to chest... dramatic change.

Went to the same high C and hit a bit differently, still not from my chest though and went down and it was smooth!!!

I think it was my head voice I hit although I was sorta whispering the notes and well it made it harder, but I THINK I did it and it helped a lot that the post I read said to try that from high to low.

Since from low to high... I either switch to falsetto or strain my chest, but high to low it was much easier. Now I just don't think I can put this to song tho and still am unsure about it but it REALLY helped a lot.

And a teacher will help even more so that is the next step.

Thanks for the post and anyone else with advice would be helpful.

And oh, I've been told and noticed it usually never goes up to high C, and usually A or B will be the very highest for male parts. Which I guess is really mainly high baritones or so anyway, maybe tenors, but won't need to get really high ever in musical theatre. Either way, can't exactly change my range or timbre so what I am is what I am, just gotta figure that out so I know what to sing and all that.

I think I'd like my voice a bit more deep though. I'm 18 and I think my voice has developed pretty fully, but who knows maybe it'll get a deeper/richer/powerful sound to it in the future or with training could it change for the better? Who knows... I'll just try to improve my voice the best I can and gotta get ymself a teacher.

Anyway, thanks again and any other help would be appreciated.

[phantom_tenor]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 7:05am

no, not all tenors have solid high Cs. This is an incredibly misleading and ridiculous statement. High C is an extreme note beyond most tenor's ranges. Even when fully trained, alot still don't get there, or at least sounding any good. The truth is, most tenors don't sound any good in full voice above a B flat, and many many not even good as high as that. As an untrained, undeveloped tenor, do not go above G in chest without before seeking a teacher, if indeed you are a tenor, or you will wreck your voice, trying to sing high notes without using proper technique.
Range actually hasn't got alot to do with what you are. There have been baritones that could hit high C and tenors who can hit low D. It's a very individual thing and has alot more to do with the colour of your voice.

At 18, your voice is a heck of a long way from being fully developed. Provided you take care of your voice, you won't know what you can really do til your mid 20s, and even then you won't reach full vocal maturity until your 30. Don't belt those high notes just yet. You still have a long way to go. Be patient. Find a good teacher. Don't oversing.

I hope this helps. Don't listen to any technical advice given on the board. It frequently comes from people who don't know what they are talking about, although you will see the occassional bit of good advice. You need a teacher. Soon. It's worth the cash.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 8:06am

You'll find that as you continue singing (and doing so properly) your voice may change a bit more--either higher or lower.

Age is also a factor. When I started singing in my church choir, I was considered a "second tenor". However in church choral music there rarely are parts for second tenors. Therefore I usually sing the bass line. After 25 years of choral singing, I can honestly say that I am a solid baritone. I have decent range, especially in my lower notes. Still, I've covered a tenor part when our sole tenor was ill. I was dizzy as heck because I was using my head voice and I wasn't used to it.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 10:02am

As someone just said, range has nothing to do with voice type. It's timbre and without hearing your voice no one on this board can know what you truly are. I'm sorry but Phantom tenor is wrong when he says most tenors can't sing high B flats. If you're trained and a tenor you should be able to do that or your training is lacking. Talk to any tenor in any college program, most of them LOOOOOOVE singing B flats. I know plenty of tenors who can. He is right however that you shouldn't strain too much to sing high you can hurt yourself. Only you know if it hurts or not. Some people like Carolee Carmello can sing their whole lives without a voice lesson and she's got range for days. Of course none of the people I know are tenors.

Here's the final word, if you really wanna keep singing, find a good teacher. He or she will figure it out for you

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 11:57am

You're probably a high baritone.

However, take voice lessons, and wait a few years. Then you'll know for sure :)

[JayKid]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 12:25pm

ok thanks everyone... I'll get a teacher soon, most likely in a week or 2 or so.

Well, it hasn't killed my voice as of yet, but I am hitting an A twice full voice (although not holding it) and a bunch of G's which are held. They are belted up there and although today I'm gonna see if I can figure out more with my head voice (doubt I can learn it well in just 2 days) to maybe use it for the performance.

But yea, I do have to just hit all the notes for Seussical and then when this is over I'll stop all that and find a voice teacher and see what happens.

Thanks again everyone, you've been helpful.

And one last question... can training ever get your chest voice to go higher? It seems when going higher that training is only to help you get your mixed and head voice to get those higher notes and that maybe your chest voice is just already how it is forever... but I dunno. And same for going lower, curious if training helps that. I mean it personally feels nothin will come out any lower than low A, but I have no idea really...

Anyway, enough of this... already too much writing lol, bye.

[mpaosong]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 3:41pm

Sorry, but unless you can hit and sustain a high C you are not considered a Tenor.By Broadway or Opera standards.
The philosophy that not every tenor can hit a high c is all warm and fuzzy but terribly misleading. If a casting director puts in a breakdown- Male Tenor. They want someone who can sing to a high C. Period. The role may not require a high C, but they expect you to have that. You will surely piss A LOT of people off if you claim to be a Tenor and are not. At least in the world of Professional theatre. Timbre is one thing voice classification is another.
And yes I do agree there are Baritones and Basses that can sing high c's, they are still not in their optimal range. There are also Tenors who can not hit high C's and top out at A5. But it is usually due to lack of training.
However the high C is what is expected.Unless otherwise stated for the role.

There is a lot of competition out there and I can guarantee you that anyone working in Broadway who claims to be a Tenor.... can hit a high C and sustain it.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 3:54pm

mpaosong--you are not really correct in what you say. First off, voice types are rather ambiguous anyway, and many people simply don't even like to use them. That said, you don't HAVE to be able to hit a high C to be considered a tenor. Of course, it's nice to be able to, but in musical theater, you probably won't ever be required to go that high as a tenor--and if you can't, I'm sure it won't "piss off" too many people as you said. A good musical theater tenor will usually have a solid A, and should be able to go up higher than that while "mixing" or belting. High C's for tenors in musical theater are more like an added bonus rather than a requirement. Opera, however, is a different matter, but that belongs on another message board!
Updated On: 7/20/05 at 03:54 PM

[FranziaRebel]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 4:05pm

Well ok here goes my two cents which is not worth more than anyone elses but I do a have a degree in voice and if there's one thing I can tell you with a great deal of certainty is DON't look for advice on how to sing on here. Not that some of what I've read hasn't been good or even great advice, but the best advice is to find a teacher with an excellent reputation that you feel comfortable with and that you trust and listen at least in the beginning, only to them.

Singing is like everything else in life everyone has an opinion
but not everyone that has an opinion knows what they're talking about.

And that's my opinion.

[mpaosong]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 4:48pm

I apologize for my generalized response to something that should have been more specific.
When I made the comment about pissing off Casting Directors, I should have only spoken for myself and the other Casting Directors/Directors that I personally know. Not for the industry as a whole.

I do agree that there is a level of ambiguity in vocal classifications/ranges.

What I was trying to convey is that, In order to meet the needs of the material we need to have some form of a “classification system” that we understand and utilize.
Currently the system that I rely on is- Tenors sing to High C(male high C).
I should not have made such a definitive statement. I guess I made it out of my personal frustration with “tenors” who are actually Baritones, etc…It is frustrating for me to want a tenor and to get a Baritone.

I think the important thing here is that most everyone agrees that this guy should find a great voice teacher.

I never intended to give vocal advice. I was only trying to give a perspective as to what was expected in the industry. The industry as I know it. I apologize that it came across the way it did.

I will from now on keep my opinions about such matters to myself. And again, sorry for the generalized response.

Good Luck Jay kid in finding and Amazing Voice Teacher!!!

Peace

[apdarcey]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 5:40pm

mpaosong, you are 100% wrong. range has absolutely NOTHING, 0% to do with voice classification. it all has to do with the qulaity of the voice... voice classifications were developed for choral singing, not solo performance. and a conductor would rather have a group of men with similar "hero" voices (bright) and a group of men with similar "villain" voices (dark) so they blend together as a group. the same goes for women. it does not matter whether these people are singing in head or chest voice, or falsetto for men. there have been many tenors who can sing lower than some basses, altos who can sing ridiculously high, etc. it has NOTHING to do with range. a developed singer will have a large range no matter what voice part they claim to be. so stop parading around like you know what you are talking about when you clearly have no idea.

[BroadwayBaby6]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 5:44pm

First of all, go to a voice coach. Secondly, whatever you do, DO NOT strain your voice to go beyond your natural range. You shouldn't be belting or trying to do any of this stuff now. Your voice is still developing and you need to find a voice coach that will not push you to sing material beyond your current range. Good luck!

[mpaosong]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 6:58pm

I thought my apology would put this to rest but I guess not for you.
First of all I have never “paraded” as anything. That was never my intention.
I was only trying to be helpful. I would never intentionally give anyone singing advice. And I stand by the fact that I did not. I recommended a voice teacher.
I was stating something that I thought would be helpful. Period. Nothing else. No hostility, and again I apologize if it came out wrong. It was a knee jerk reaction to something that I don’t agree with, and more than anything I hate for people to go to auditions with unrealistic expectations. I‘ll except that there are MANY opinions on this range issue. And, I will leave it at that.

I am very new to BWW.com and only heard about it from an actor I know who wanted me to see a funny post about him. When I got to the site I was so incredibly impressed with the amount of people that really care about Broadway. I respect Broadway performers and couldn’t be happier that they are finally getting some of the attention they deserve. I would never intentionally hurt or mislead anyone who participates in the Message Boards. I sincerely thought it might be helpful information.
I guess it is just better to keep those opinions to myself. This probably isn’t the right forum for it. Again my apologies and I only wish everyone the best with their auditioning etc…

[shybwyguy]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 7:11pm

Shame on you MP for trying to be helpful.
I would think future bwy perfomers would want your advice.
Well, at least your getting paid to have these opinions.lol
Oh well you tried.
Call me in when you guys hold replacement auditons. It was fun meeting you, Craig and Tiffany.
Keep up the good work.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 7:12pm

mpaosong--don't worry! You're fine. We know you were just trying to be helpful. There was no need to apologize but your apology is definitely accepted.

apdarcey--chill out, dude. Oh, and by the way, although every professional singer should have a large range, range most definitely is part of voice classification.

[jazzyshinyfeet]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 7:58pm

This is too funny and sad at the same time. MP is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo respected in this business, and one of THE MOST respected Cd’s in the Country. NOT just NYC. LA, Chicago, and countless other places. He’s partially responsible for the careers of a zillion actors. And the most sweetest guy in town. I am sure he was only trying to be helpful.

It is a shame when someone who has an opinion that might actually help some of us get to where we want to go, gets so much crap for trying to offer some advice.

It is a shame when someone who knows all the actors that we so admire shows up and tries to be helpful and is met with such hostile comments. This is a forum where all the professional advice we can get should be welcomed. We don’t have to take it. And true, every CD is different. But that’s part of the game. Get to know all of them and what they want.

But I guess the 4 Artios awards he has were given to him in error. And, god help the countless number of performers he is so known for helping. How stupid Idina, Norbert, Taye, and Eden must be to take his advice on countless occasions.

Who knows how things may be different. And to APDARCEY good luck when you get to NYC.
Funny, Funny, Funny.
Also, maybe this should be a lesson to us that just because someone doesn’t come right out and say they are so and so doesn’t mean that they aren’t on this site. It is/was probably nice for one of the “insiders” to participate in our conversations and see things from a different point of view, and not be bombarded with requests for audition appointments.
The bottom line, let’s be nicer to all who post. If we agree with them or not. And don’t accuse me of kissing butt, he has no idea that I am on this site and no way of tracking my screen name to me.

[Radioactiveduck]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 8:44pm

I kidna know your problem Jay. I can belt up to an A or sometimes a B-flat, but I also have a headvoice/fasletto. I really think it's falsetto, but my choir direct seems to believe it's a head voice. Anyways, that can kick in anywhere from E below middle C above. And it can take me to the E above the C above middle C. God, I'm confusing myself.

So technically I am a tenor, as I can reach and sustain a C (and then some), but it's not belted. Is that a problem?

[~Jer~]

Posted: 7/20/05 at 8:51pm

mpaosong, check your PM's

thnx

[JayKid]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 12:09am

Whoa this post went crazy! Thank you everyone for any advice you gave... main one I got being, get a teacher! lol.

And another (one reason I made this post) don't tell anyone you are a tenor or baritone when you are actually the other. Since that is one reason I'd like to know the difference.

And sustain high C, in chest voice? Or in falsetto? Or head?

I really (as I have said in this post) don't have a head voice and can sustain high C in falsetto (have to do it twice in this play). Head voice, well... maybe I can at some point, but no idea, my chest only goes up to a high A and that's belting. And yes, I know, belting is bad (although I think sometimes it can't kill you, since I personally am not belting so til it hurts, plus sometimes it gives the song more power and emotion... plus well I can't frikin help it, i'm a loud person!)

I definetly gotta get a teacher tho, and well, that will be sometime in the next week or so... I have my dress rehearsal tomorrow and than 3 shows the following 2 days, so those 4 performances with the few belted G's and A's here and there are just gonna have to happen. I'll rest my voice up after that and get a teacher.

My goal is to get a head and mix voice (good or bad, just learn to do it and notice it and sing it etc) so I can not belt the higher notes for the most part. Unless once and a while for a certain song I need it... since sometimes I do think a powerful belt can be needed, as long as you are still acting and putting emotion out there and not just yelling for the heck of it.

Well... that's all I got to say now. Still clueless on my range although I think I'm most likely a highish baritone of some sort I guess and will hopefully develop my head and mix voice with lessons and get singing better in the future.

Thanks again for any help and any more help is appreciated as well.

[phantom_tenor]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 12:54am

"I'm sorry but Phantom tenor is wrong when he says most tenors can't sing high B flats"

I didn't say that. I said most tenors can't hit high good high Cs, and that many can't hit a good B flat in full voice. Many is different to most, and, besides that, i'm not talking specifically about fully trained professional tenors. It's little use to an 18 year old who has never trained to know this kind of thing anyway.

Distincive Baritone is totally correct. To be considered a tenor you don't have to have to have a high C, or even any high notes at all. I was almost 17 before i had a good A, and before that i was still considered a tenor. It's totally to do with colouring and where the voice lies naturally. People develop at different rates. I am so sick of people going on about high Cs. Chances are, any full voice high Cs done in live performance are transposed to B anyway.

I have a question: If tenors must have high Cs to be considered tenors, how come ensemble tenor parts almost never go beyond a B flat? And how come a traditional full-blown dramatic tenor maxes out at B flat?

Don't tell me i'm wrong when i know perfectly well what i'm talking about. Disagreeing with tenors is a seriously bad idea....it's the egos

[JayKid]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 1:05am

If I can at some point get a recording of myself singing... than maybe people can tell me what voice I am, although I'll probably have a voice teacher by that time anyway. Either way, I'll post it anyway at some point since I'll get some other opinions.

And curious, does where your voice is best mean anything for what voice you are?

Example: Les Miserables - Do you hear the people sing... it starts on a, peaks at middle C, goes down to my lowest note (low A) and ends on F for the Enjolras part. That sounded pretty low in my voice when on stage. Once I get to B or middle C and up my voice gets a bit more comfortable for me to sing... like up to D and E. Under that it's just low, unless it's a soft song than the lower notes than sound better since for whatever reason slower and soft songs are easier sang in a lower key.

I dunno, maybe where my voice is strong has nothin to do with it, but it's stronger in my middle or upper part of it though, and easier to sing.

Anyway, as I said in my above reply, when you say sustain a high C, what do you mean?!?! in chest, mix, head? Since I can hit high A in chest... and if I need to hit high C in chest and sustain it, hell no, I'm no damn tenor. I can hit and sustain it in falsetto and well, can't exactly do head or mix voice so no idea there... but oh well.

Anyway, I gotta get goin to sleep... need to rest. Night!

[phantom_tenor]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 1:21am

sustain a high C in chest voice is what everyone is arguing about. Or maybe it's a head voice/chest mix. I come from the classical side of singing, so i'm not entirely familiar with the whole chest voice/head etc idea. Classical singers tend not to use these terms, even though we very occassionally use the techniques.
The whole high C notion is rubbish anyway. Some of the greatest operatic tenors have had trouble with high Cs, which proves greatness and range do not go hand in hand as many seem to think. You shouldn't/shoudn't be able/shouldn't expect to hit a C outside of scales until you're trained and in your early 20s, and even then it's very dangerous to regularly sing it. A full voice C is a seriously extreme note.

And a bit of history for you all. Gilbert-Louis Duprez, a Frenchman, was the first tenor to push his voice to full voice high C, which he did in the 1830s. Before that, after several hundred years of opera and other classical singing, no one was aware that it was possible. This totally disproves any suggestion that true tenors must sing high Cs. I'm sorry for continuing this arguement, but i am determined to prove it.
Updated On: 7/21/05 at 01:21 AM

[JayKid]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 7:22am

oh ok, well either way, I don't think I will ever hit high C. It just seems unattainable in pure chest voice (for me). Plus dunno if you can expand chest voice range or just have to use mix and head to expand range (if anyone can answer that, it'd be awesome... since it'd be cool if I could expand my chest voice so I could say hit G and A easier in chest voice as well as learn head/mix and hit it there too).

Either way, I'm gonna believe you since I have been told that I will almost never have to hit high C as a guy in any musical theatre, tenor or not(seussical being an exception I guess lol, but I go falsetto so it makes it easy, plus only way I can do it as of now).

Either way, I'll just find a teacher and train my ass off and see where it leads me. And whatever voice I am, whether it be baritone or tenor... that's that and I'll find out at some point.

Now back to sleep (woke up cuz I'm hungry... maybe should get a quick somethin to eat, but I just wanna sleep a bit longer).