BEST MUSICAL RACE 2014- Page 5

[VotePeron]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 10:37pm

Can someone please explain to me what makes After Midnight deserving of a nomination? I have not seen it, but isn't it just a plain musical revue? Why would they give that a nomination over a show like Beautiful, Rocky, or Gentlemans Guide?

[TheatreKid3]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 10:38pm

Definitely think you can throw ALADDIN in the mix now.

Sticking by my 5:

BULLETS OVER BROADWAY (pending reviews)
ALADDIN (I think the NYT's positive review and AP's rave has made it a STRONG case)
GENTLEMAN'S GUIDE
IF/THEN
BEAUTIFUL: THE CAROLE KING MUSICAL/AFTER MIDNIGHT

Sorry ROCKY, but 20 good minutes does not a Best Musical make.

EDIT: I knew I was forgetting something. IF/THEN will probably be in the mix. Updated On: 3/20/14 at 10:38 PM

[BroadwayNYC2]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 11:02pm

Because After Midnight is FANTASTIC and is better than the shows you listed. Being a revue has nothing to do with quality

[ACL2006]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 11:14pm

I'd still say Aladdin's would be the 5th nominee if they opt to expand the category.

My 5:
After Midnight
Beautiful
Gentleman's Guide
Bullets Over Broadway
Aladdin(if expanded for 5 nominees)

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 11:22pm

BULLETS OVER BROADWAY (pending reviews)

I will be shocked if Bullets Over Broadway is not nominated. Same with If/Then.

[oasisjeff]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 11:40pm

"And if there's such a preference to shows with original music, how come Jersey Boys, Mamma Mia, Million Dollar Quartet, Xanadu, Rock of Ages, etc. were all nominated for Best Musical? And those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many more."

I'm not sure how this disproves anything I wrote. I said I think there is a preference to rewarding original music, not that it is something that never occurs.

I just think they are ranked differently, or at least I rank them differently, whereby:

If/Then telling an original story with original music is more ambitious than...
Rocky telling a known story with (mostly) original music which is more ambitious than...
Beautiful using Carole King music to tell the Carole King story.

All three might be enjoyable, but in that example, the stakes are highest for If/Then, since they are dealing with the greatest amount of unknown variables.

There was never any concern that people would say the songs in Beautiful sucked.

I just used If/Then, Rocky, and Beautiful as examples. You can plug in any shows based on that criteria. I'm not making a case for any of those three specifically, just the larger point of ranking shows based on their difficulty level using those metrics.

Of course, compared to last year, this year is insanity. It was really just a two-show race last year. So, the fact that everyone is coming up with different top 5 lists is a good state of affairs.

[jnb9872]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 11:47pm

I think you have an interesting viewpoint Jeff, but to counter I like to think of these things the way Roger Ebert used to: on a certain level, one must consider not what a show aspires to be but how successful it is at actually being what it wants to be. To some, a show like BEAUTIFUL, which you dock points from for not having an original score, is a more successful evening than a show like ROCKY, which at least has original music, because the story is well-told, well-performed and the songs are effectively integrated into the musical (whereas ROCKY is considerably less well-written but very enthusiastically produced.) To a person who holds these beliefs (not necessarily my own, just power of example) the award comes down to whether the Best Musical Tony should go to the best material or the best production. It's an interesting dilemma, one not likely to be settled with any authority.

I don't think there should be any definitive ranking of shows via a degree-of-difficulty model (i.e. original musical with original score > adapted musical with original score > original musical without original score > revue) because AFTER MIDNIGHT might well be the best executed version of itself relative to every other show and might very well deserve your vote despite the flawed ambition of an IF/THEN or ROCKY (again, depending on one's views of these shows.)

It's an interesting conversation, though, for sure.

Updated On: 3/20/14 at 11:47 PM

[TheatreKid3]

Posted: 3/20/14 at 11:49pm

What about best score nominees?

For me:

ALADDIN (per eligibility - I think it will be)
THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY
A GENTLEMAN'S GUIDE TO LOVE AND MURDER
IF/THEN
5th Spot: ROCKY by default bc we all know BIG FISH won't get any love here.


Updated On: 3/20/14 at 11:49 PM

[oasisjeff]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 12:01am

"I think you have an interesting viewpoint Jeff, but to counter I like to think of these things the way Roger Ebert used to: on a certain level, one must consider not what a show aspires to be but how successful it is at actually being what it wants to be."

To be clear, I have no clue how the Tony nominees are even decided, but I am just thinking that the industry side probably takes that into consideration on some level, even if it's subconscious. I certainly didn't want them ranked that way officially.

And that, for the most part, this site is seemingly more audience than insider/community, so we're more the People's Choice Awards or the box office side of the awards equation. Which is why the Best Picture nominees often aren't the box office leaders... (I said often, lest people once again give a context-free example "disproving" me, heh)

As an audience member, then sure, when I see Beautiful, I'm going to enjoy that show based on it being the best version of that show possible.

I have no desire to put that sort of critical lens on my theater-going experience. I don't even review shows here or elsewhere anymore, since I don't want to have to think about that aspect during or after the performance.

[jnb9872]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 12:02am

I don't believe there's been any announcement of adding a fifth slot to Best Score.

[jnb9872]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 12:08am

Hadn't realized you, like I, were taking on a hypothetical viewpoint, Jeff. No worries if I misinterpreted your post as such.

Still, I do think it's an interesting conversation, and one well worth having, even if neither you nor I hold the specific opinions we used as examples!

[oasisjeff]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 12:15am

No worries. I much prefer an interesting discussion any day of the week.

And, since I got curious... in case anyone else didn't know:

HOW ARE SHOWS AND ARTISTS NOMINATED FOR TONY AWARDS?
The Nominating Committee is made up of a rotating group of up to 42 theatre professionals who serve for overlapping three-year terms. Committee members are asked to see every new Broadway show. The committee votes on the nominations, which are announced in the spring, about a month before the awards.

Updated On: 3/21/14 at 12:15 AM

[MNC77]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 2:11pm

So far I'm not sold on Beautiful getting a nomination, not because I dislike the show, but because of the reviews. Last year, instead of giving nominations to a still running popular jukebox show (Motown) the committee nominated A Christmas Story and Bring it On, even though they had both closed. Bring it On and A Christmas Story had received substantially better reviews than Motown, and the committee recognized that.
I think Beautiful, and perhaps Rocky, will see similar results. According to StageGrade, After Midnight, Gentleman's Guide, and Bridges all received better reviews than either Beautiful or Rocky. With Aladdin receiving surprisingly positive reviews, and Bullets and If/Then still to open, it is looking like Beautiful will not be in the top 5 reviewed shows of the year.
The committee could easily vote differently this year, and show some love to Beautiful because of the positive word of mouth and box office numbers it has received, but if the voting is similar to last year, I think Beautiful could be left out

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 2:18pm

MNC77, I think it is going to be Rocky that gets the Motown treatment this year, not Beautiful. Beautiful was better reviewed than Motown.

[StickIt]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 2:29pm

Much as I'd like to see it nominated as I felt it was a more successful production in terms of achieving what it wanted to than Rocky, Beautiful's not really the kind of show that needs big wins at the Tonys to stay afloat. They're selling well, their advance is very healthy, and their target demo is the demo that buys most theatre tickets. Beyond that, it's a hit with the Boomer generation and it'll have no problem selling well on tour at all the usual subscription houses. If you want to draw a comparison to Motown, they certainly haven't been hurting despite the chilly reception to the show regarding awards.

Also, as far as the "top 5 reviewed shows"...I don't know that the pattern of the Tonys is to always nominate the top 5 shows based on reviews objectively. Beyond that, how can we even say what the Top 5 will be, since Bullets and If/Then are major contenders and have yet to be reviewed? Everyone on here was predicting across the board pans for Aladdin and it fared relatively well in the reviews. It's definitely still a bit early to be making any definitive statements.

[MNC77]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 2:53pm

neonlightsxo - I would agree that Beautiful was definitely reviewed better than Motown. My main point was that it was reviewed worse than other shows that have already closed, as Motown was to Bring it on. But the better reviews and word of mouth could definitely help it get a nomination when Motown couldn't, and I agree that Rocky could get the Motown treatment.

StickIt - I would agree that the pattern of the Tonys isn't to nominate solely based on the reviews, I was just speculating based on last years votes. The top 5 reviewed shows comment was also mostly speculation, but with Bridges, Gentleman's Guide, and After Midnight already receiving better reviews, If 2 of the 3 shows left to be reviewed get better reviews it will be out of the top 5. That said, Beautiful could still be in those top 5, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was making a definitive statement that it wouldn't.

[Jeffrey Karasarides]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 5:03pm

"If 2 of the 3 shows left to be reviewed get better reviews it will be out of the top 5."

If/Then, Bullets Over Broadway, and...

Hedwig and Violet are most likely going to be entered into the revival category as they're both old shows being performed on Broadway for the very first time ala Little Shop of Horrors, Assasins, Cinderella, etc. (also due to the fact that it's such a slow year for musical revivals), plus they'll both have better chances there.

[MNC77]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 6:26pm

Jeffrey - I was referring to Aladdin as the third, which has been reviewed, but which we hadn't included in the list. I counted it because it isn't listed on stagegrade so far, and I haven't had time to read all the reviews of it yet, though it seems to have done as well, if not better than Beautiful.

[Jeffrey Karasarides]

Posted: 3/21/14 at 6:42pm

Oh, I get it now!

[ucjrdude902]

Posted: 3/22/14 at 12:59am

Out of curiosity, and not to thread jack but could Fantasia be possibly nominated?

[oasisjeff]

Posted: 3/22/14 at 1:05am

No, Fantasia cannot win best musical.

If anything, I imagine she would be up for Best Featured Performer in a Musical.

[ucjrdude902]

Posted: 3/22/14 at 10:37am

Good to know

[CapnHook]

Posted: 3/22/14 at 10:44am

ALADDIN will not be eligible for Best Score. At least two of the "new songs" were written for the film.

[CapnHook]

Posted: 3/22/14 at 10:45am

ALADDIN will not be eligible for Best Score. At least two of the "new songs" were written for the film.

[TheatreKid3]

Posted: 3/22/14 at 12:55pm

^ Out of the 17 listed songs in the Playbill, 12 were NOT a part of the film. I don't care when they were written, but the cut songs have never been up for awards consideration before and most haven't even been heard before. All reprises are new material, so you can lump those in as well. Also, you can't forget the expansions and changes made to the original songs are also technically "new." No Disney musical have ever been denied eligibility before so I don't think the committee will start now.

New Material:
-Changes in "Arabian Nights"
-Proud of Your Boy
-These Palace Walls*
-Babkak, Omar, Aladdin, Kassim
-A Million Miles Away*
-Diamond in the Rough*
-Changes in "Friend Like Me"
-Act One Finale*
-High Adventure
-Somebody's Got Your Back*
-Proud of Your Boy (Reprise II)*
-Prince Ali (Sultan Reprise)*
-Prince Ali (Jafar Reprise)*
-Finale Ultimo*

Asterisks are listed by songs that aren't considered "cut songs" and were written originally for this production, even if they draw on material from already existing songs. By Tony rules that I just read, they should still count as well. As you can see, 9 of 12 songs listed are not cut songs - a good chunk. But I do believe the cut songs should be counted and as such, the score of Aladdin will be over 60% new.

If you don't include the cut songs, then 9 out of 17 are still "original," which is still over the required 50%.

NEWSIES was pretty much on par with this and was considered eligible. It all comes down to whether or not the 3 "cut songs" are considered eligible. Even then, I still think the score might make the cut.




Updated On: 3/22/14 at 12:55 PM