Walter Bobbie -God Forbid I defend him (better title)?

[justme2]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 7:06pm

I saw this message on "the other board" and it really pissed me off in it's unfairness. I actually registered with that damn board so I can "educate" the poster.

The poster claims:
"Most of the reviews mention that he doesn't live up to his CHICAGO work. But what does that mean I wonder. Mr. Bobbie has had no other success as a director since (or before) CHICAGO.
And Mr. Bobbie still doesn't have hit number 2. After 9 years."

I know it's too much to ask, but please...can people please do some research before blasting someone?

Before Chicago:
(and I'm only counting his directorial work, not his acting successes)

Grand Night For Singing (conceived and directed by Bobbie, Drama Desk award and nominated for a Tony, still playing across the country today)
Nude, Nude, Totally Nude with Andrea Martin Show (directed, awards)
Durang, Durang (directed, awards)
Encores (part of the original team that brought this generation to the Encores concerts)artisitc Director for three years, still on the advisory board, directed Fiorello, Tenderloin, and Golden Boy there)

After Chicago
Footloose (director, and like it or not, it ran for two years, made back it's money and is still playig around the country)
Tribute to Neil Simon/The Play's the thing (director)
Twentieth Century (extended twice, director)
Compleat Female Stage Beauty (director)
The Philadelphia 2000 season (director)
White Christmas (director,smash sucess in SF last year, playing 5 cities this year)

as for NEW ideas and upcoming work
The Road to Hollywood (conceived and directed, workshopped)
A Face in the Crowd (adaptation)
June Benefit show of Carousel this year

Damn people! Think before you post slanderous remarks like the ones above.

And I have to wait two days for my "registration" with ATC to go through before I can post this there. I only hope SMORE2 site hops!

Updated On: 5/6/05 at 07:06 PM

[justme2]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 9:50pm

*bump*

I am still angry over this!

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 10:30pm

I don't know if you're related to Walter Bobbie or something, but I can't figure out why you're so upset about this. What's inaccurate about the statement that "Mr. Bobbie still doesn't have hit number 2"? The fact is -- he hasn't.

The point being made by smore2 is that all of Bobbie's work in New York other than "Chicago" (and Reinking gets much of the credit for that success) has flopped financially and been less than acclaimed critically.

-- Footloose did NOT make back its money in New York. It lost over two million dollars here (though perhaps it made money on the road).

-- A Grand Night For Singing ran 52 performances and lost its entire investment (it's Tony nod was clearly just to fill out the category)

-- Twentieth Century ran 84 performances for Roundabout and received mixed reviews.

Much of other work you mention was undistinguished and/or short-lived. And please specify what awards the Durang show and Andrea Martin show won -- Bobbie's own bio doesn't mention any. Even if they did win something, neither ran more than a month or could be classified as a hit.

His sheparding of Encores was fine, but none of his shows transferred from Encores into a successful commercial run (ie, no hits).

However you want to characterize it or describe it, the fact remains Walter Bobbie has had exactly one hit to date as a director: Chicago. You may have loved all of his other work, but that doesn't change the fact that NOTHING else he's directed could possibly qualify as a hit -- financially or artistically.

Updated On: 5/5/05 at 10:30 PM

[midtowngym]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 10:37pm

i scratched my head also--Footloose made money? Was that around the time Barry Weissler became Secretary of State? And none of those other projects were financial successes or 'hits', but thankfully Margo, as usual, did the research I was too lazy to do.

Updated On: 5/5/05 at 10:37 PM

[justme2]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 11:34pm

But not all the research, midtowngym...you can research and find exactly what you want and leave the rest out....

People don't have to be related to someone just to point out that they are being unfairly attacked. I happen to like this director's work. I am more upset by the "get on the train and run this guy over" mentality of people when they smell trouble in a production than I am by SMORE claiming this guy hasn't had a hit in 9 years.

He is being unfairly assessed as a crappy director who just "got lucky" with Chicago. That is simply not true.

If you are qualifying atristically successful theater as having to have years long runs on the stage, you must consider something like Mamma Mia an example of yours. To grade him as unsuccessful because his shows had LIMITED runs (as opposed to closed early) is not right.

Also, the point of Encores was not to "get the concert a free ride to Broadway". It was to present musicals in a concert format. And he and his team did that very well and sold out year after year. Chicago broke out and THEN others did as well. Only because audiences started looking at Encores as a place where GREAT theater work was being done.

I don't see anyone downgrading Sondheim for not having had a "hit" in years. Not that I would put Bobbie in the same directorial sphere as Sondheim, but, good lord, does he have to have a "Chicago" every time he's at bat to earn respect from you people?

Here are some examples of the praise those "undistinguished works" garnered:

"Under Walter Bobbie's brisk direction, with tasty choreography, this "Golden Boy" hustles right along on fast feet, like a bantamweight in prime condition, from song to song. . . ." -- Ben Brantley, The New York Times: March 23, 2002

White Christmas
"Director Walter Bobbie, best known for his hard-edged staging of Broadway's long-running "Chicago" revival, handles the sentiment, nostalgia, earnestness and schmaltz like a master confectioner." -SF Chronicle, Nov 2004

Durang, Durang
"Christopher Durang has provided a blissfully silly sendup of Tennessee Williams’s epochal memory play… Nimbly directed by Walter Bobbie, with an exuberant cast that knows just how far to push caricature, the spoof finds Mr. Durang playing his signature tricks with gender inversion, sexual reversal, and absurdist anachronisms to create a dysfunctional-family portrait…with wickedness and knowing affection." – Ben Brantley, New York Times

To sum it up, If you don't like a director, fine. Say all you want to if you can back it up. And Margo, you backed up your points as well as I did. You always do! We just come from two different sides of a viewpoint. SMORE2 didn't even attempt to do that; it was just an attack.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 11:48pm

In the parlance of the theatre business, a "hit" is a show that turns a profit in the commercial arena. "Chicago" is a "hit" by any definition. Nothing else Bobbie has directed has qualified as a "hit," no matter what reviews it has received. Thus, he is still waiting for his second "hit." There's no sin or shame in that, but that's the fact.

Sondheim has only had four hit shows in his career -- Forum, Company, Night Music, and Into the Woods. Does that mean he is not to be revered or isn't worthy of respect? Of course not. The fact that he's had more flops than hits doesn't make him one iota less of a genius. Most of our greatest geniuses have several flops on their resumes.

Same with Bobbie. You obviously love his work. Fine. No one's telling you not to. But the fact is, everything he's directed in the commercial realm other than Chicago has flopped. That doesn't necessarily make him a bad director or an untalented one -- just an unsuccessful one financially. He's had one hit show -- and a megahit at that. Few directors even get one hit like that in a career. So it's no sin pointing out the rest of his efforts have been unsuccessful and there's no reason for you to work yourself into a tizzy about it.

Updated On: 5/6/05 at 11:48 PM

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 11:49pm

Well, Margo certainly knows how to put someone in their place

[justme2]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 11:56pm

If it's worth it for some poster to point out that his work is "financially unsuccessful"...then it's worth it that other posters like me can come to the board and post in his defense, isn't it? It's cetainly not right to assume someone is related to him because they enjoyed his work. If that were the case, I'd have to assume you and others had had bad relationships with the man.

Good Lord, if we are judging people's merits strictly by how much money they can make, then I guess everyone in the business falls into Bobbie's "category", then, don't they? Which would mean he isn't that bad.

Honestly, I don't look to the money numbers to tell me if a show is worth seeing. I look to the subject matter and the cast. And he has pleased me (and many others, as my research attests) ALMOST every time. ALMOST...I'll let you guess which ones I didn't like!

[justme2]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 11:57pm

oh really, Baritone? read the ENTIRE thread.

For crying out loud people! Have some maturity. Margo and I are having a DISCUSSION! There's no need for you to get involved with snarky comments.

[midtowngym]

Posted: 5/5/05 at 11:58pm

OY. You're missing the point. You can be as pleased as punch. He's still only had one hit in his career. And...you seem undermedicated to me.

Updated On: 5/5/05 at 11:58 PM

[justme2]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 12:04am

Midtowngym, I am ALWAYS undermedicated.

There is no point being missed here. Can't we have a discussion about anything without there having to be a "winner"?

We disagree. So what? I do not qualify a person as "not good" because he has not had a mega musical hit every time he opens another show. Margo does. What is it with you guys? Can't we all just agree to disagree and get along??

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 12:19am

"I do not qualify a person as "not good" because he has not had a mega musical hit every time he opens another show. Margo does."

Now you're pissing me off. How dare you make up such utter nonsense. WHERE did I say such a thing? I'm going to end this here because I refuse to engage in a discussion with the ignorant, illiterate, and those who lie for their own purposes.

Try and see if you can understand this.
A "hit" is a show that turns a profit in a commerical setting.
A "flop" is a show that fails to turn a profit in a commercial setting.
Calling a show a "hit" or a "flop" is not in any way as assessment of its artistic quality -- merely a dollars and cents accounting of its viability and success at the box office. Lots of brilliant shows were flops and lots of mediocre ones were hits.

Walter Bobbie has directed exactly ONE hit in his career -- meaning ONE show has turned a profit.
Every other commercial venture he has helmed has flopped.
That's a FACT.
Look it up.

I made no statement as to whether or not he was a "good" director or not and in fact made a point of stating that he's had so many flops "doesn't necessarily make him a bad director or an untalented one -- just an unsuccessful one financially." That's also a FACT.

I also made a statement that Sondheim has had many more flops than hits. That's a FACT. But, finanicial success or lack thereof doesn't diminish his genius in any way shape of form. I also said that before, but apparently your reading comprehension is rather limited.

Please read what I have written above carefully and try and educate yourself about the terms of art within the theatre business. And please refrain from EVER again putting words in my mouth and attributing untruths to me. If you want to continue on with your ill-informed idiotic rant about Bobbie or whatever other nonsense you have rolling around in your brain, feel free, just leave me the hell out of it.

Updated On: 5/6/05 at 12:19 AM

[justme2]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 12:30am

Good lord...and they called ME undermedicated.

"You may have loved all of his other work, but that doesn't change the fact that NOTHING else he's directed could possibly qualify as a hit -- financially or artistically." MARGO

You know, I always respected your opinions before this. I thought you well-informed and respected your posts. I agreed to disagree and left it at that. If you read deeper into my statement "Margo does", than was intended, I apologize. It was only meant to show the other posters that you and I disagreed on something and that was ok.

But to turn around and call someone "ignorant, illiterate", and someone "who lie for their own purposes." and your advice to "try and educate yourself about the terms of art within the theatre business...If you want to continue on with your ill-informed idiotic rant and Bobbie or whatever other nonsense you have rolling around in your brain..."

Wow. What an utter lack of respect for other people and their opinions. (oh, those are my words, by the way).

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 12:38am

"What an utter lack of respect for other people and their opinions."

Not "other people," just you, Justme2.

Posted: 5/6/05 at 12:45am

Justme2, are we about to witness another meltdown this week?

Paramedics are standing by.

[Thesbijean]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 12:47am

Margo, I love you...

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 12:49am

justme2:

You KNOW I like you, but come on!

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 1:32am

Wow, this thread melts down in your mouth AND in your hands!

[DAME]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 2:27am

I am away from the computer one day. Just one and you are all killing each other. What happened?

[Mr. Tuttle]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 3:34am

Wow. This thread is so stupid and dumb..it's like Walter Bobibie directed it.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 3:44am

You think you're witty aren't you? You sound like a very dim 12 year old, Tuttle. Give it up.

[Princeton78]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 9:07am

Tuttle is not the only one on this thread that sounds that way Munk.

[Princeton78]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 9:12am

PS...I wasn't referring to Justme2 either.
When did this board turn into "Almost Famous?"

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 10:07am

justme2 -

"Good Lord, if we are judging people's merits strictly by how much money they can make, then I guess everyone in the business falls into Bobbie's "category", then, don't they?"

Margo didn't do that.

"If you are qualifying atristically successful theater as having to have years long runs on the stage, you must consider something like Mamma Mia an example of yours."

Margo didn't do that either.

"I don't see anyone downgrading Sondheim for not having had a "hit" in years."

Nobody said that either.

"I do not qualify a person as "not good" because he has not had a mega musical hit every time he opens another show. Margo does."

She did? Where? At what point did Margo say Walter Bobbie was "not good"?

This is not a disagreement, this is just plain refusal to face facts. Margo is absolutely correct about what constitutes a "hit" and a "flop". Those terms refer to the financial status of a show, not artistic merit.



Example:

Passion is a brilliant Sondheim musical that won multiple awards and FLOPPED on Broadway.

Mamma Mia is a HIT both on Broadway and internationally despite it's lack of original score and critical acclaim.



If justme2 wants to change the definition of those words to fit his/her own purpose, then he/she needs to clarify that before putting words in other people's mouths and twisting what they say. There was no disagreement at all. There was simply delusion.

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/6/05 at 10:27am

'Not "other people," just you, Justme2.'

A BWW classic for the ages.