Obama commutes Chelsea Manning's sentence

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 6:50pm

Well done!

Still time for Edward Snowden and millions of nonviolent drug offenders.

http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/17/chelsea-manning-gets-obamas-mercy-will-b

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 6:59pm

I don't think there's any chance of Snowden getting a pardon. 

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 8:03pm

Extremely disappointing. A real lapse in judgment on Obama's part. No leniency should ever be shown to people who betray the trust put in them and leak classified documents, EVER!

Updated On: 1/17/17 at 08:03 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 8:48pm

Even if I didn't think Manning had performed a great public service, no one with even a touch of humanity could think that she deserves to spend 35 years in jail.

[dented146]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 9:31pm

Are you kidding me? Manning, likely, was responsible for the death of many people who were helping the US in their battle against terrorism. Both Democratic and Republican leaders are outraged and I don't blame them. I hate Trump. But so far his has been mindless talk. To act and let a traitor off is another thing entirely.

I would not be surprised to see Trump make everything worse but IMO Obama's foreign policy legacy is one of total failure leading directly and indirectly to the death of tens of thousands. Manning is just the cherry on top.

 

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 9:36pm

This isn't a memo or two she passed along. Reportedly, it was up to or perhaps more than 750,000 documents she leaked completely betraying the trust this country placed in her as an intelligence analyst. If she had been convicted of aiding the enemy, she could have been sentenced to death. She's lucky it was only 35 years. And I have plenty of humanity, thank you, just not towards people who place this country at risk for their own selfish reasons and because they've deluded themselves into believing they occupy a higher moral plain than everyone else.

Updated On: 1/17/17 at 09:36 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 10:15pm

dented146 said: "To act and let a traitor off is another thing entirely."

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I seem to be in the minority here. Given what this government has been doing in the name of the "war on terrorism," my heroes are bound to be characterized as traitors by most other people.

This thread is another reminder that I really do live in a bubble. On Facebook and in real life, I'm surrounded by people who are as delighted by this decision as I am. I don't consider that a bad thing, but it does come as a minor jolt to encounter folks who don't share my core values.

 

[Steve C.]

Posted: 1/17/17 at 11:59pm

This is a surprising commutation; I do however agree with kdogg that Chelsea Manning should be pardoned, even considering the gravity of the convictions. Also we don't know the possible several reasons for the pardon; first, she did stand trial, admitted her "crimes" and was serving her sentence. IMO, that takes more gumption and moral perseverance than fleeing the country.

The President may have decided to play it as a "chess move", controversial,

1) Actual human compassion for her.

2) It adds another layer to the issue of hacking and Russia.

3) Assange said he would return to the US if she was pardoned

4) Maybe deciding that her circumstances regarding logistics of incarceration and/or the cost of the surgeries (I actually do not know where she is in her transition).

If the Democrats don't grow a pair, Obama may toss a few more "foul balls" before Friday.   

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 1:19am

Steve C. said: "This is a surprising commutation; I do however agree with kdogg that Chelsea Manning should be pardoned, even considering the gravity of the convictions. Also we don't know the possible several reasons for the pardon; first, she did stand trial, admitted her "crimes" and was serving her sentence. IMO, that takes more gumption and moral perseverance than fleeing the country.
 

Steve, while I disagree with you, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, just to correct a few points. She was charged with 22 crimes. She only pleaded guilty to 10 and was tried and convicted of 11 others, only being found innocent of the one charge that could have carried the death sentence. So in point of fact, she "admitted" to less than half her crimes. And your lauding her for not fleeing the country implies she had the opportunity to do so which I'm pretty sure is not correct. I haven't seen any evidence that she knew her arrest was imminent prior to it happening which would have been her best opportunity. From her arrest through her trial, she was kept under maximum watch and was not out on bail. My understanding is they were as worried about her killing herself as they were about her fleeing. I'm not sure any of this demonstrates any sort of moral gumption on her part other than continuing to believe what she did was right. And just FYI, she could have been sentenced to 90 years, the prosecutors requested 60 and even her own attorney hoped her sentence wouldn't be longer than 25 years. Compared to that, 7 years is a frigging cakewalk.

I'm a staunch supporter of Obama, voted for Hillary and detest Trump but between this and the Cuban refugee decision, I'm not sure exactly what he's trying to do in his last few days. Maybe, he is as we all are, lamenting the possibility some of his signature accomplishments like ACA will be gutted and wants to add a few more "noteworthy" decisions. But if he thinks letting out someone who betrayed the U.S. in such a significant manner is a proper decision or that relations between Cuba and the U.S. are now normalized because he's letting some cigars be imported and that oppression in Cuba ended with Fidel's death, I would disagree with him. 

Updated On: 1/18/17 at 01:19 AM

[dented146]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 1:51am

There are secrets and then there are secrets. Within that continuum there is just personal and political embarrassment but there can be death to individuals and to large groups of people. The issue for me is where we draw the line. To those who say that there should be no line and the government should have no secrets, I say that is lunacy. And I say the same thing to those who feel the government should be able to collect and store information on everyone just because they have the power to do so.

I do not believe it is such a fine line. People who put themselves in grave danger in the hope of protecting the rest of us from things like Orlando should not be betrayed in the name of free speech. I don't have the guts to be doing many of the jobs being done to protect people whether it's being a cop working undercover or a foreign national infiltrating a terrorist group. To me, Manning isn't even a close call. It's an egregious case that deserves the harshest penalty within the law.

Updated On: 1/18/17 at 01:51 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 9:01am

I don't want to start a larger argument about our apparently differing attitudes towards the wars fought since 2001, but let me ask one question of my opponents here. The documents leaked by Manning exposed some very shady dealings by the US government on matters of great importance, often matters of life and death. In addition to the infamous video of an attack on civilians, here's a rundown of some of the things included in the leaked documents:

https://www.thenation.com/article/long-list-what-we-know-thanks-private-manning/

My question is: without the actions of whistleblowers like Chelsea Manning, how would we ever know about these things? (Don't even try to say we shouldn't know about them.)

[Petralicious]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 9:22am

"Im guessing Mr Obama would have pardoned General Andre and Benedict Arnold if he was ever extradited. 

 

Updated On: 1/18/17 at 09:22 AM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 9:22am

I'm with you on this one Kdogg. Obama did the right thing. 

[Theater_Nerd]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 10:38am

Petralicious said: "
"Im guessing Mr Obama would have pardoned General Andre and Benedict Arnold if he was ever extradited."

 

Your posts are akin to someone flinging wet toilet paper to a wall to see what sticks. 

 

 

 

 

[Petralicious]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 11:11am

It seems dishonest to be against WikiLeak leaking DNC documents, but then be for letting CM free.  He did make Ed Snowden happy though according to his tweet. 

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 11:12am

Remind me who was sentenced to prision for 30 plus years for the DNC leaks...

It also seems dishonest to compare Chelsea Manning to Benedict Arnold.

Updated On: 1/18/17 at 11:12 AM

[Theater_Nerd]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 11:30am

Channing didn't flee the country, owed up to her wrong doing and took her punishment. 

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 3:11pm

kdogg36 said: "I don't want to start a larger argument about our apparently differing attitudes towards the wars fought since 2001, but let me ask one question of my opponents here. The documents leaked by Manning exposed some very shady dealings by the US government on matters of great importance, often matters of life and death. In addition to the infamous video of an attack on civilians, here's a rundown of some of the things included in the leaked documents:

https://www.thenation.com/article/long-list-what-we-know-thanks-private-manning/

My question is: without the actions of whistleblowers like Chelsea Manning, how would we ever know about these things? (Don't even try to say we shouldn't know about them.)"

 

I'm always up for a good political discussion/debate but the one requirement I always have is that the person I'm having the discussion with be interested and open minded enough to want to gain a greater understanding and appreciation of where I'm coming from and expect that I will return the favor. To have a discussion with someone who is clearly not interested in gaining a greater appreciation of my view and is so firmly entrenched in his that virtually no greater understanding is possible is, to me, a complete waste of time. To describe a broader discussion as a "larger argument" which says you view what we've been having as an argument, to describe people of differing opinions as "opponents", to ask for a response but tell me what I shouldn't even try to include in it, to self describe yourself as living in a bubble where you have intentionally surrounded yourself with people who only think exactly as you do and to get even a minor jolt to learn not everybody sees things the way you do and believes in exactly what you believe tells me that you have zero interest in trying to understand where I am coming from and only seek to more forcibly argue your point. For me, I don't believe going back and forth with you would be productive or a good use of my time.  I think Dented gave a great explanation of why her actions were wrong and instead of asking us to respond to your question, you can if you wish, respond to the specific points he made. To you she's a whistleblower and a hero, to me she's a traitor who put lives at risk and compromised our nation's safety and deserves to serve every day of the sentence given her. We will have to agree to disagree.

[Petralicious]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 3:38pm

Theater_Nerd said: "Channing didn't flee the country, owed up to her wrong doing and took her punishment. 

 

"She served only 7 years of a 35 year term and couldve gotten 90. She got brave soldiers and people who put their lives on the line for us and United States killed.  She gave the enemy inside information on weapons and troops. Osama Bin Laden used her and her information as recruiting and propoganda.   She is On the par with Benedict Arnold
 

Updated On: 1/18/17 at 03:38 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 3:44pm

UncleCharlie said: "We will have to agree to disagree."

Well, yes, that's fine. I don't think my question was phrased in as hostile manner as you suggest; in this small area of discussion, yes, you're my opponents. :)

To clarify one thing: I don't surround myself with people who think exactly like I do. I'm a pretty hardcore libertarian, and the vast majority of my friends are progressives and self-described leftists. It just so happens there's very little disagreement among my in-person friends on this issue.

The fact is, I have great skepticism that the "war on terror" is doing anything other than poking various hornets' nests and pointlessly killing foreign civilians as well as US military personnel. Clearly, others on this thread disagree. I respect that disagreement but am unwilling to put in the time and attention required to have that - yes - larger argument. :)

I was hoping to start a "smaller argument" with my more specific question, but obviously no one's under any obligation to engage me on that.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 3:44pm

"She got brave soldiers and people who put their lives on the line for us and United States killed."

Wrong.

Military Fails to Link Leaks With Any Deaths

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/31/59869.htm

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 1/18/17 at 9:41pm

Theater_Nerd said: "Channing didn't flee the country, owed up to her wrong doing and took her punishment. 

 

"

 

That implies she had the opportunity to flee.... 

[Petralicious]

Posted: 1/19/17 at 8:45am

For a man obsessed with his legacy, Mr Obamas final days are mind bongling.  Between releasing  Manning, pardoning 209 felons,  The UN, Cuba and now he releases yet another terrorist. Before there was ISIS (or ISIL as only he calls it) there was the FALN who terrorized America.  But at least Lin Manuel  Miranda is crying tears of joy!



http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/18/politics/obama-commutes-prison-oscar-lpez-rivera/

Updated On: 1/19/17 at 08:45 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 1/19/17 at 9:34am

Petralicious said: "For a man obsessed with his legacy, Mr Obamas final days are mind bongling.  Between releasing  Manning, pardoning 209 felons,  The UN, Cuba and now he releases yet another terrorist. Before there was ISIS (or ISIL as only he calls it) there was the FALN who terrorized America.  But at least Lin Manuel  Miranda is crying tears of joy!"

I don't know much about Oscar López Rivera, but the vast bulk of Obama's pardons and commutations have been for nonviolent drug offenders who were given ridiculously long prison sentences. I think if you looked into some of these cases, you'd agree that clemency is appropriate. For me, this is one of the high points of Obama's very mixed legacy, though I wish he'd done much more.

The recent decision on Cuban refugees is a bad one. (Of course, if it were up to me, I'd welcome peaceful people from anywhere in the world without restriction.) That's a shame, because Obama's previous reforms on Cuba policy were another bright spot in his legacy.

 

[Petralicious]

Posted: 1/19/17 at 2:16pm

kdogg36 said:I  don't know much about Oscar López Rivera, but the vast bulk of Obama's pardons and commutations have been for nonviolent drug offenders who were given ridiculously long prison sentences. I think if you looked into some of these cases, you'd agree that clemency is appropriate. For me, this is one of the high points of Obama's very mixed legacy, though I wish he'd done much more.

The recent decision on Cuban refugees is a bad one. (Of course, if it were up to me, I'd welcome peaceful people from anywhere in the world without restriction.) That's a shame, because Obama's previous reforms on Cuba policy were another bright spot in his legacy.

 

 

"I agree alot of the drug offenders have served their time. But the FALN planted bombs in America killing innocent men, women and children. including Police, They are terrorist, traitors and should get Death Penalty.  

I am very surprised he did not pardon Hilary. I wish he had, so we can move on and start to heal. We do not need her to go on trial. Turn the page Mr Trump. If you want a clean slate, start here. it will be a good symbol of forgiveness and new starts

 

Updated On: 1/19/17 at 02:16 PM