Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
ChangingMyMajor
Swing Joined: 3/11/16
#1Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:01am
I was looking online at Hamilton lyrics, and a comment referred to King George as the main villain of Act One. That started me thinking. Who is the villain? There are several characters who aren't exactly the greatest, but to me it seems like there is no real villain of Hamilton. Is that possible? What do you think?
#2Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:02am
Clearly, the true villains are the ticket brokers.
#3Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:05am
A villain is, by definition, evil. The only theoretical candidate is the king, although it is not clear (to me at least) that he was animated by evil.
pupscotch
Broadway Star Joined: 1/24/16
#4Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:07am
Do you mean antagonist? Because Hamilton's antagonists are Jefferson and Burr, and I suppose Madison as well to a lesser extent (along with the numerous minor characters like Samuel Seabury, Charles Lee, James Reynolds, etc.)
ChangingMyMajor
Swing Joined: 3/11/16
#5Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:10am
pupscotch said: "Do you mean antagonist? Because Hamilton's antagonists are Jefferson and Burr, and I suppose Madison as well to a lesser extent (along with the numerous minor characters like Samuel Seabury, Charles Lee, James Reynolds, etc.)
"Yes, sorry. What I meant was kind of a mix between antagonist and villain if that makes any sense.
#6Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:12am
Hamilton's true villain was himself.
Not to be confused with Dave19.
#7Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:16am
ChangingMyMajor said: "I was looking online at Hamilton lyrics, and a comment referred to King George as the main villain of Act One. That started me thinking. Who is the villain? There are several characters who aren't exactly the greatest, but to me it seems like there is no real villain of Hamilton. Is that possible? What do you think?"
To me, the crux of Hamilton's message is that there are no heroes and villains. We have no real control over our legacy ... It's all in the telling of it. "You have no control who lives, who does who tells your story." Think of your own life - how would different people you encountered describe you?
Near the end when Burr says "now I'm the villain in your history" it's so poignant because it's as though anything else he did is erased and we remember him only for having shot Hamilton. (If people even remembered him for that before this show). And we perceive King George as a villain because of how his story is told here. Many others may not. We also view our heroes based on the representation we are taught - until recently no one bothered to mention that most of it founding fathers were slaveowners.
I like a good rhyme more than a good time
aaaaaa15
Broadway Legend Joined: 8/31/15
#8Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:37am
Well Burr is definitely the antagonist of Hamilton but I wouldn't call him the villain of the piece at all. He's very sympathetically written, in comparison to the King and Jefferson. But even the King and Jefferson are more comedic villains.
In truth, I don't think there is one. Jefferson did many admirable things and many terrible things. You can also understand the King's perspective of wanting to hold onto the colonies. I can definitely understand why Burr was furious with Hamilton. Even Hamilton himself is portrayed negatively at some points (surrounding the affair particularly).
The only ones who are far from villainous are Eliza and Laurens, who both came from slave-owning families but didn't own them after leaving home. (As far as I know, Mulligan, Lafayette, Angelica and Peggy all owned slaves at some point in their lives).
VintageSnarker
Broadway Legend Joined: 1/30/15
#9Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 3:44pm
Angelica.
(I'm kidding.)
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#10Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 3:58pm
There are several antagonists (but I don't believe any villains) -- the biggest may be Hamilton, himself. He is always TOO sure that he has the only right answer, and he is his own worst enemy.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
#11Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 4:03pm
Dave13 said: "Hamilton's true villain was himself.
"
So deep and true.
In our millions, in our billions, we are most powerful when we stand together. TW4C unwaveringly joins the worldwide masses, for we know our liberation is inseparably bound.
Signed,
Theater Workers for a Ceasefire
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#12Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 5:05pm
The OP's question seems to imply that a play must have a villain. It does not. (See OEDIPUS, for example.)
Conflict is another matter. But conflict may be born by different agents (characters) at different moments. There is no requirement that a play have one protagonist and one antagonist. (See FOLLIES, for example.)
#13Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 5:42pm
In only using the information presented in the show, Hamilton is the villain disguised as the hero. He cheats on and publicly humiliates his family because he chooses to protect his political integrity, he treats Maria like garbage when she basically declared her love even though she was good enough to hook up and pay the bribes, he causes the death of his son by advising him without knowing anything about the other person's capabilities, etc. IMHO, he even caused his own death by egging on Burr during a very low point in Burr's life. He could have been a bit more empathetic and chill out. He left his wife and kids alone in favor of his own ego.
I don't think that King George is the villain bc he's doing the job of the King, any other King would have reacted in the same manner.
Again, this is only in relation to the show, I'm aware that others had affairs and other illicit dealings.
#14Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:38pm
I had written a reply, but man Hellob said pretty much what I was gonna say word for word.
Since the first time I listened to the show, I have always identified Hamilton as his own personal villain. More-so his pride is the villain. Oh yes there are antagonists to him throughout but often he antagonizes them right back... sort of cancelling one another out. For all the **** that he is give he gives right back. Especially Jefferson. They are politicians, that's kinda what they do.
It's Hamilton himself that causes the chain of events that leads to his own downfall. It's he that cheats. It's he that publishes it in an attempt to save his legacy (how he didn't see the flaw in this I'll never understand), It's he that is morally responsible for his son's death by encouraging him. He even gives him the guns.
Burr is the villain in the history books, but Hamilton's pride is the villain in this story.
#15Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/16/16 at 11:54pm
Hamilton doesn't have a villain, in the classic sense. It has bad guy antagonists, but no villain. Hamilton is our hero and his own antagonist. It's classic man vs self fight.
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#16Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/17/16 at 4:51am
Those of you blaming him for his son's death are way off base. You do not understand the time period. People did not back down from a duel, and Hamilton's advice was the way MANY, if not most, duels were handled.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
#17Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/17/16 at 10:17am
Were most duels encouraging to shoot in the air? Even so, the whole reason for the duel was bc the guy was talking smack about the Maria Reynolds situation, therefore he was complicit in the death bc if not for his behavior the fight would never have happened. He's responsible for the death.
Eta Phillip/Laurens even says "I died for him" in the opening number.
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#18Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/17/16 at 10:24am
"For him" is not the same as BECAUSE of him. He died defending his father....a noble thing, he didn't do something that the father asked him to do.
Showing up and not actually shooting at the other was a widely accepted ending. It was far more about bravado than anything else.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
sabrelady
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/16/03
#19Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/17/16 at 11:58am
White people.
#20Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/17/16 at 1:37pm
dramamama611 said: ""For him" is not the same as BECAUSE of him. He died defending his father....a noble thing, he didn't do something that the father asked him to do.
Showing up and not actually shooting at the other was a widely accepted ending. It was far more about bravado than anything else.
"
I get and respect your point but I still stand by my original opinion of "if not for X, then no Y" he definitely caused the chain of events that led to the death.
rodrigo_ca
Stand-by Joined: 12/12/15
#21Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/17/16 at 2:14pm
Its annoying hype and the amount of threads opened in such short amount of time to discuss basic things that could be SO easily done in the "general discussion" thread.
JM226
Broadway Star Joined: 11/10/15
#22Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/18/16 at 5:11pm
let's make BWW some more $$. go hamitlon!
#23Who Do You Think is the True Villain of Hamilton? (most likely spoilers)
Posted: 4/18/16 at 7:58pm
All this talk of Hamilton "as his own villain" merely makes him sound like a well-rounded character. (The same charges apply to Oedipus and Hamlet.)
Almost 2500 years ago, Aristotle explained that well-written characters make errors that lead to their eventual suffering.
A true "villain" is a device for melodrama, in which characters are saints or devils. (Think nuns and Nazis in TSOM.) There's nothing wrong with a good melodrama, but HAMILTON doesn't appear to be one.
