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Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans

HorseTears Profile Photo
HorseTears
#25Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/5/14 at 9:44pm

Seriously, Henrik? Jesus. Kad spelled it out for you. What more do you need? A PowerPoint presentation?

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#26Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/5/14 at 9:51pm

Because I disagree I need a PowerPoint presentation?

Kad Profile Photo
Kad
#27Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/5/14 at 11:39pm

Victor/Victoria and Some Like It Hot both deal with gender impersonation and cross-dressing... neither deal with trans characters at all. Which is the term I objected to being used to describe the performances/characters in the initial article.

None of the works discussed deal with a truly trans character, for the reason I described: transgender refers to an individual whose gender identity is not the same as their sex. Julie Andrews' character in Victor/Victoria ALWAYS identifies as a woman. She dresses as a man as a scam.

I just honestly don't see how the performances of Mark Rylance or Jefferson Mays in their respective shows this season is anything particularly noteworthy, in re: the LGBT community. In the case of Rylance, it's female impersonation, in the case of Mays, it's comedic, theatrical drag, in the case of both it's a centuries-old theatrical trope.

Lumping "drag" and "trans" together, as if they were interchangeable, is problematic.


"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
Updated On: 5/5/14 at 11:39 PM

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#28Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 12:38pm

Kad, I hate to beat a dead horse.

I'm fine with Merriam-Webster definition of transgender: "of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth "identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth"

Just as the T in LGBT should be expansive enough to call for respect and political equality for anyone who, for whatever reason, cross-dresses, who, for whatever reason, identifies with a gender other than birth-gender, and who, for whatever reason, self-expresses in a way traditionally seen as incompatible with birth gender, so too is there a point to be made that this year's theatre season presented us with a great many people for whom some form of D (drag) or T (trans), applied.

Inclusively applied - to actors performing roles of another gender, or actors portraying people who, for whatever reason, identify with or express themselves in a manner traditionally non-corresponding with their birth gender.

Just as there is great diversity among LGBT (bonded against discrimination which is rooted in a common insistence on gender-conformity whether it be with respect to whom one wants to love, whom one wants to have sex with or how one wants to present to the world), there is great diversity among T.

Given how expansive this definition is I see nothing wrong with Musto's attribution, which wasn't limited to T but to "some form of D or T."




words, words, words! Updated On: 5/6/14 at 12:38 PM

haterobics Profile Photo
haterobics
#29Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 12:59pm

"Kad, I hate to beat a dead horse."

I'm not certain you do. Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans

Kad Profile Photo
Kad
#30Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 1:52pm

Again, I don't see how the performances of Rylance or Mays - wonderful though they are - are notable according the LGBT lens Musto is putting them under. They're not portraying LGBT characters. They, themselves, are not LGBT. The plays they are in are not about LGBT people or issues. Their playing the opposite gender is not done in a way to "queer" the text.

They are men playing women- a theatrical conceit that dates back to Ancient Greece and appears regularly.

I don't consider the performances trans* and to consider them alongside a marginalized group is problematic.


"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."

GilmoreGirlO2 Profile Photo
GilmoreGirlO2
#31Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 2:52pm

Just as the T in LGBT should be expansive enough to call for respect and political equality for anyone who, for whatever reason, cross-dresses, who, for whatever reason, identifies with a gender other than birth-gender, and who…

You may think the term “trans” should be expanded to cross-dressers for whatever reason, but, as Kad has pointed out multiple times, that simply is not how the queer community today generally uses the word. And, it’s not a matter of the community not being inclusive (which is why the “Q” has now been tagged onto “LGBT”) – it’s just not how “trans” is used in today’s world.

And, I agree with Kad that Mays and Rylance’s performances are not of particular note to the queer community. They are portraying women, yes, but the characters do not identify as queer (all theories on Olivia’s possible hidden homosexual tendencies aside) and the reason behind the casting of men in these roles was not queer-motivated.

haterobics Profile Photo
haterobics
#32Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 2:54pm

I'm also definitely agreeing with Kad on this front.

This is pretty standard in bad journalism, though. When you are trying to make a point of how many of something there is, you cast a wide net. If you wanted to show how few of something there is, you get very specific about what you would count.

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#33Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 3:04pm

I haven't seen Gentleman's, but Twelfth Night is among the most homoerotic plays ever written. Orsino and Olivia simultaneously fall in love with Cesario who is really Viola. This becomes more complicated with the arrival of Sebastian who is mistaken for Cesario. HELLO!? The exploration of gender and love in Twelfth Night is compelling no matter how the roles are cast; the themes can be brought to life in a particularly telling way when played by an all male cast as it was originally played (I would expect the same would be true if the play were presented by an all female cast).

In any event, Musto was talking about two things "drag and trans," not just "trans." Those two things are very different (whether we include cross-dressing as part of transgender or not, a hot button political issue at the moment granted). But they are related. They both challenge traditional beliefs about gender and they both do so through the presentation of seemingly non-corresponding gender-identifications, of a split between deemed biology and artifice.

I'm not sure I understand why mentioning them in the same breath in this particular context should invite reproach.

And btw I am queer. My believe that transvestites as well as other non cisgendered people should still be included among transgendered people may be at odds with many, perhaps the majority of, the queer community at present. Frankly, I would think the issue is far from settled. But that's beside the point entirely. Here, Musto's words were "some form of drag or trans," a fairly inclusive qualification encompassing many things.

Why do I get the feeling that instead of wanting to discuss something that should be important to all of us, some people on this thread would rather suppress a different point of view in the name of political outrage.







Updated On: 5/6/14 at 03:04 PM

haterobics Profile Photo
haterobics
#34Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 3:18pm

"I'm not sure I understand why mentioning them in the same breath in this particular context should invite reproach."

It is sad that we are probably giving Musto's words more dissection than he ever did. I think he just wanted to say there are a lot of guys in dresses on Broadway, but when he fancied that up to "drag and trans," it added an unnecessary (and potentially incorrect) interpretation of those performances.

To say Harvey Fierstein in Hairspray and Samuel Barnett are both doing drag in comedies just seems off and incorrect. One invites the audience into the fact that he is a man playing a woman, and one doesn't.

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#35Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 3:25pm

Haterobics, which one of those performances doesn't invite the audience into the fact that the actor is a man playing a woman (or, in Barnett's case, a man playing a woman playing a man)?

Sure, Fierstein's performance is stylistically "drag" in a way that Barnett's performance is not.


But the fact is that both performances invite the audience into gender****, the themes of appearance versus reality when it comes to gender and the very question of what, if anything, defines the reality of gender. As I've said, Twelfth Night always demands that of its audience whether Viola is played by a woman or a man.

Even a member of the audience who - somehow - is oblivious to the fact that Barnett and the entire company of Twelfth Night are male is certainly aware that the "actress" he thinks is playing Viola dons male attire and presents herself as a man, Cesario, through most of the play. Helen Hunt, Anne Hathaway, Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio, Imogen Stubbs, Felicity Kendall et al weren't in drag when they played Viola but they certainly were when they played Viola playing Cesario, as was Viola herself.







Updated On: 5/6/14 at 03:25 PM

haterobics Profile Photo
haterobics
#36Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 3:31pm

"Both performances invite the audience into the appearance versus reality of gender and to question the very reality of gender."

I think where you and I differ is that I think of Fierstein doing that in Hairspray, but Viola (and not Barnett) as doing that in Twelfth Night.

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#37Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 3:38pm

haterobics, I'm very curious what you mean. You wrote "I think of Fierstein doing that in Hairspray, but Viola (and not Barnett) as doing that in Twelfth Night." You meant that one of them was not doing that but you dropped a "not".

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henrikegerman
#38Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 3:38pm

duplicate post Updated On: 5/6/14 at 03:38 PM

haterobics Profile Photo
haterobics
#39Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 3:42pm

I think it's correct as I wrote it. The not is before Barnett, so I agree with your points, but I think they are made by Fierstein and Viola (the actor vs. the role). I see Viola as a girl playing a boy, but not a boy playing a girl who is playing a boy, since he is not playing it with any sort of wink and nod that I'm a boy playing a girl in this play who is then playing a boy.

Obviously, anyone can draw the line to include Barnett in the mix and be completely accurate, but I just didn't do that both times I saw it.

Kad Profile Photo
Kad
#40Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 4:06pm

I certainly am not engaging in this discussion with you in order to "suppress a different point of view in the name of political outrage"- and I don't think I have made an attempt to DO so. You explicitly said you did not understand/following my reasoning for my opinion and I have tried to explain where I am coming from.

I think haterobics summed up the issue with Musto's article the best with, "I think he just wanted to say there are a lot of guys in dresses on Broadway." Musto attempted to use terminology, but did not do it well, particularly when the terminology itself is ever-evolving and eludes being codified.


"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."
Updated On: 5/6/14 at 04:06 PM

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#41Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 4:28pm

Ah, haterobics, got it; my misread.
Actually, Kad, I didn't mean you when I was responding to a suppressive attitude.
And I agree with you that haterobics said it best, any claimed inartfulness on the part of Musto notwithstanding.

Updated On: 5/6/14 at 04:28 PM

SonofRobbieJ Profile Photo
SonofRobbieJ
#42Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 4:31pm

Musto's choice of words was glib, given the breadth of performances that involve drag, cross-gender casting, transvestism, etc.

Kad was objecting to the use of the word 'trans' because it's extremely specific and Kad doesn't feel any of the characters are, in fact, trans. I could maybe make the case for Hedwig (trans out of circumstance?), but otherwise, he's right. Perhaps Birney's character would be considered trans were it about a person living today. Perhaps not. But there are no characters, save for possibly Hedwig, that could be termed as 'trans'.

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#43Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 4:44pm

I mean this question sincerely as I would not wish to offend anyone by using the word "trans" in a circumstance where it wouldn't be thought appropriate (and respecting that it should be the community most affected which should determine the terms of identification).

If I am referring to a person who is comfortable in his or her putative gender, who does not wish to change it, and does not wish to identify as the opposite gender, but prefers to dress as the opposite gender would traditionally dress, what is the term I should use? Would it be cross-dresser?

Updated On: 5/6/14 at 04:44 PM

Kad Profile Photo
Kad
#44Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 4:47pm

I believe cross-dresser is now the phrase of choice. I will confess, I'm muddy about that- simply because cross-dressing isn't discussed very often anymore.


"...everyone finally shut up, and the audience could enjoy the beginning of the Anatevka Pogram in peace."

SonofRobbieJ Profile Photo
SonofRobbieJ
#45Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 4:49pm

Well...is there a sexual element to it? Cause that would fall under transvestism. Or is it performative? Then that would be drag. Don't know? Cross-dresser, I assume. But a lot of these terms are deemed offensive if used incorrectly. Even when used correctly, some feathers may be ruffled.

Trans is used when a person's gender identity does not match the sex they were born.

The idea of gender and identity is still very much in flux. Facebook now lists, what? Fifty genders as options? It's fascinating.

henrikegerman Profile Photo
henrikegerman
#46Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 5:15pm

Thanks.

Maybe Musto should have written "trans*"
trans*

GilmoreGirlO2 Profile Photo
GilmoreGirlO2
#47Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 5:19pm

Actually, Kad, I didn't mean you when I was responding to a suppressive attitude.

I certainly hope you didn’t mean me and, if so, I apologize if I ever came off as having a “suppressive attitude.” I was simply reiterating things that Kad already stated and explained why I felt, in regard to the word "trans" and how the meaning of the word today is more specific than any person who dresses as the opposite of their biological sex, that Rylance and Mays' performances would not fall under that term (or drag) to my eyes.

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henrikegerman
#48Seven of the Tony nominated performances involve drag or trans
Posted: 5/6/14 at 8:58pm

GilmoreGirl, no, not really, although by the time I read your post I was probably oversensitive because of someone else's posts.