Louise is mean.
Louise is mean.
taylorlouiseprescott
Chorus Member Joined: 10/16/13
#1Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 4:25am
In the dressing room scene, Louise says to her mother, "Rose" - I don't have any talent. As you've been reminding me my whole life.". But Rose never once told Louise that she didn't have any talent. She was acatually very supportive of Louise's career. And Rose was ready to go back to Seattle when Louise said "Mama, how much money do we have? How much money do we have".
Was Arthur Laurents just messing with our heads?
I don't understand. ;( ;( ;( ;(
chrisampm2
Broadway Star Joined: 5/26/07
#2Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 5:21amWhen your mother casts as you as a cow and has you "Moo moo moo moo," you kind of get the message that she doesn't think you're a star.
#2Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 5:29amAnd you HAVEN'T ANY TALENT. Not what I call talent. Talent for the deaf, dumb and blind maybe. Not an ounce of it Ms GYPSY ROSE LEEE.
"You can't overrate Bernadette Peters. She is such a genius. There's a moment in "Too Many Mornings" and Bernadette doing 'I wore green the last time' - It's a voice that is just already given up - it is so sorrowful. Tragic. You can see from that moment the show is going to be headed into such dark territory and it hinges on this tiny throwaway moment of the voice." - Ben Brantley (2022)
"Bernadette's whole, stunning performance [as Rose in Gypsy] galvanized the actors capable of letting loose with her. Bernadette's Rose did take its rightful place, but too late, and unseen by too many who should have seen it" Arthur Laurents (2009)
"Sondheim's own favorite star performances? [Bernadette] Peters in ''Sunday in the Park,'' Lansbury in ''Sweeney Todd'' and ''obviously, Ethel was thrilling in 'Gypsy.'' Nytimes, 2000
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#3Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 5:57am
Have you seen the show? Rose is far from a loving mother, even though she does love the girls. You "tell" people things in many ways, not just with words.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
ullabelt
Stand-by Joined: 3/26/06
#4Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 6:00am
Its implied that she has been saying that, we don't see the characters every living moment.
Plus I think the comment about the cow pretty much sums it up.
As does 'Louise can be a boy'
After Eight
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/5/09
#5Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 6:36am
Tlp,
Rose was a driven and driving woman, but wished the best for her daughters, and believed she was doing the best for them. They chafed, understandably. But they too were cruel to her, and I felt sorry for her when June ran off And yes, Louise was indeed mean to her mother after she had achieved success. Where indeed would Miss Gypsy Rose Lee have been if it hadn't been for Rose?
chrisampm2
Broadway Star Joined: 5/26/07
#6Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 7:26am
How was June cruel? She runs off because Rose, in an effort to maintain control, is stunting June's growth - denying her the opportunity of a lifetime (working with Ziegfeld)and forcing her to play a Baby when she's on the verge of womanhood. She's not abandoning Rose; she's escaping her. Yes, Rose thinks she's doing what's best for her. She's delusional, moving, and compelling. But she gets what's coming to her.
Louise supports Rose. It's only when Rose refuses to let go that Louise fights back. Like June, she's doing what she can to separate and way too late an age.
After Eight
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/5/09
#7Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 7:35am
"How was June cruel? "
Running off without telling her mother beforehand.
Are you that hard that you can't understand what a blow that would be to someone?
#8Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 7:42am
I never thought that was necessarily cruel of June. Her mother so dominated and drove her that had she told her mother beforehand, Rose would have never allowed it.
Mama Rose had no one to blame but herself for June's leaving.
....but the world goes 'round
Updated On: 10/17/13 at 07:42 AM
KathyNYC2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/2/10
#9Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 8:20am
^^ of course, that would be a blow to her for June - but that's not really the point. The point is that her mother wanted to be a star and pushed her girls to be stars in her place when she missed her opportunity. Not only did she want to keep June away from her big opportunity with Ziegfeld, she wanted to keep dressed her as an 8 year old..and continue with an old style act that people were tired of.
Yes for sure Gypsy Rose Lee would not have come about without Rose but perhaps Louise would have been happier or picked a different profession for herself - had she had the opportunity. Success on the stage is not key to everyone's happiness.
#10Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 8:26am
The only way for June to get out from under her mother's thumb was to run away.
However, June was all of 14 (or something like that) when she ran off to be married. It's an easy argument that she wasn't ready to be out from under her mother's thumb yet, domineering or not.
Hey, that part happened in real life, so there you have it.
I think one of the problems is playing Rose too sympathetically. In many ways, she was a monster. Maybe Merman got it right the most, but she also lost the Tony. You don't win very often with unsympathetic leading characters. Adding humanity to her has helped other actresses win the audience over and win the awards. But perhaps it also lessens the stakes for her two daughters and lessens the intended (fabled) story as well.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
After Eight
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/5/09
#11Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 9:00am
Chris, Kathy,
I admire you both, and hear where you're coming from.
But c'mon, really, is a little compassion too much to ask..... Or too hard to muster?
#12Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 9:10am
LOL
CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES
followspot
Broadway Star Joined: 12/27/11
#13Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 9:37am
I've always felt the tragic arc of Rose is that — after being given a glimpse into her "want" — to GET OUT! — with which we empathize, we then watch her actions cause those who love her — Herbie, June, and Louise — to each eventually want the same thing — OUT! "Success" is really a substitute for Control, which is really a substitute for Love. Rose fails at achieving Control. Louise masters it. (But to what end? And through what means?) No one masters Love. There are no truer — and more universal — and more tragic — words spoken than Rose telling Louise "I made you what you are."
"Tracy... Hold Mama's waffles."
Updated On: 10/17/13 at 09:37 AM
#14Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 9:40am
Miss Dolores Gray explains it all for you, in no uncertain terms.
http://youtu.be/IMWVIcnBKVA
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/31/69
#15Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 10:02am
They are all monsters. Rose does indeed tell Louise she has no talent- repeatedly- as well as pushing her to the background and favoring Baby in almost every instance. Louise (or gypsy) is indeed cruel to her mother after her success but if you read her book you can certainly understand why (Rose is nuts). June is spoiled and unappreciative and elopes without a thought to the devastation it will cause to her family.
They are all deeply unhappy folks.
WOSQ
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/18/03
#16Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 10:09am
Remember Tessie's comment earlier, "Like mother, like daughter". When Laura Benati blew up at Rose, that was what went through my head. In about 7 different productions/filmings of this script that I have seen, that was the only time Louise equalled Rose.
Louise finally is every bit as tough as Rose. That isn't mean. That is survival.
"If my life weren't funny, it would just be true. And that would be unacceptable."
--Carrie Fisher
#17Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 10:20amIt's not very different from when Aunt Lavinia tells Catherine how cruel she is and Catherine replies that she's been taught by masters. Louise finally is willing to accept that her mother was harsh and demeaning to her, and she's in a position to turn it back around at her.
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
KathyNYC2
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/2/10
#18Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 10:33am
^^^After Eight. I didn't say I didn't feel compassion for her. I do ..she was a lonely unsatisfied woman who figured fame would fill her up somehow. Possibly it would have. Probably not.
But she was clearly wrong and I am not about to blame the kids for it.
#19Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 11:39am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpfxZj8jFKs
Here is Gypsy Rose Lee and Ethel Merman speaking glowingly of Rose. This is why (as much as I adored Patti LuPone in it) Ethel will always be the ultimate Rose. She didn't apply pop psychology to her. She liked her, and admired her, and thought she was right!
TheatreDiva90016
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/10/04
#20Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 12:09pm
"TheatreDiva90016 - another good reason to frequent these boards less."<<>>
“I hesitate to give this line of discussion the validation it so desperately craves by perpetuating it, but the light from logic is getting further and further away with your every successive post.” <<>>
-whatever2
#21Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 12:24pm
You know who would make an awesome Mama Rose?
OPRAH
....but the world goes 'round
#22Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 12:28pm
I'd like to see her as Nurse Fay Apple.
"Take one step and see what it gets you
And see what it gets YOU!
And see what it gets YOU!"
etc
CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES
Updated On: 10/17/13 at 12:28 PM
chrisampm2
Broadway Star Joined: 5/26/07
#23Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 4:23pm
After Eight, I wrote that Rose is "delusional, moving, and compelling." I do have some compassion for the character.
But when you write in your comments things like "are you that hard that you can't understand..." you make a pleasant discussion or debate into something unnecessarily personal.
Gothampc
Broadway Legend Joined: 5/20/03
#24Louise is mean.
Posted: 10/17/13 at 5:06pm
Rose leaves Louise in her room on her birthday singing a boring song to a lamb. How much meaner can a person be?
Here's how I think it breaks down:
Ethel Merman - mean Rose
Roz Russell - mean Rose
Angela Lansbury - nice Rose
Tyne Daly - mean Rose
Bette Midler - nice Rose
Bernadette Peters - nice Rose
Patti LuPone - stop taking pictures Rose
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
