CAROUSEL on Live At Lincoln Center Tonight at 9PM!!- Page 5

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:49pm

blaxx---this is from the wiki article referenced above.

Billy invisibly attends Louise's graduation, hoping for one last chance to help his daughter and redeem himself. The beloved town physician, Dr. Seldon (who resembles the Starkeeper) advises the graduating class not to rely on their parents' success or be held back by their failure (words directed at Louise). Seldon prompts everyone to sing an old song, "You'll Never Walk Alone". Billy, still invisible, whispers to Louise, telling her to believe Seldon's words, and when she tentatively reaches out to another girl, she learns she does not have to be an outcast. Billy goes to Julie, telling her at last that he loved her. As his widow and daughter join in the singing, Billy is taken to his heavenly reward.


To summarize, Billy's redemption is only achieved by helping his wife and daughter understand the world they live in. He's a "guardian angel" of sorts. By telling them to believe in the words of "You'll Never Walk Alone" he frees them from their burden of hatred and isolation. They can understand, forgive, and move on with their lives.

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:53pm

I see. Well, I guess from this concert I never saw that. I wish they could have shown a few more reedeming qualities from Billy's character. I've seen people on Maury Povich I liked more than him.

I was just left thinking they were better off with no guardian angel at all.

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 7:58pm

>> "Carousel is a story of redemption for the "unworthy" (or the damned, if you will).

Billy messes up big-time, and gets a second chance to redeem himself.

That's the "Oklahoma! You're okay!" moment.

Not the "slap that feels like a kiss," which is meant to instigate a whole slew of uneasy and thought-provoking emotions."

Okay.. this is a really enjoyable discussion!

If we're talking about what the "Oklahoma! You're okay!" moment is in Carousel, I would suggest that it's not about the concept of "redemption". I would submit that it's the concept R&H literally send the audience out the theater doors with (just as they do in Oklahoma!):

"Walk on with hope in your heart, and you'll never walk alone."

If Billy and Julie weren't so willing to accept their fates as unchangeable (or "hopeless"), they may have had happier outcomes.

Billy uses his redemptive "second chance" to advise his daughter to, "Listen to him!, Believe him!" regarding "Starkeeper"'s specific instruction of hope to Louise at her graduation. "Makes no difference what they did or didn't do. You just stand on your own two feet!"

To my mind, the message is that if a person never loses hope, and "stands on their own two feet" in spite of circumstances, or what's come before, they will not be "alone" (they will find "strength").

ANNNNNNNNND.... >scene<.

____________________

eeek... In the time it took me to compose the above, you've all rendered me, "Captain Obvious"!




Updated On: 4/28/13 at 07:58 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 8:26pm

blaxx, I take it you are talking about the latest performance, which I haven't seen (though i'm chomping at the bit thanks to the discussion here).

But from Billy in the text:

"I reckon my sins are good, big sins
And the punishment won't be small.
So take me before the highest court
And let me be judged by the highest judge of all!"

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 8:32pm

Oh, I got that part. But I was PRAYING to witness such punishment. Alas, there was none.

Perhaps this is all due to the period. I just can't help but shake my head as to why modern audiences would not leave the theater either depressed or disgusted.

I would have to see a Billy that justifies Julie's infatuation. And a Billy that is crushed with remorse and trying to repair the damage.

But this Billy to me deserved what he got and O'Hara's Julie needed a martini and a fat self-help book.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 8:39pm

Well, John Raitt was handsome, likable AND sang like an angel (pun intended). I'd probably let him hit me as long as he sang something afterwards.

I think Billy is supposed to be an "over-grown boy" and life at the carousel has allowed him to remain so. He's a little older, but compare him to the James Dean character in the film, REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE.

It's a standard American archetype: the boy-man who throws a tantrum now and then because he is misunderstood; but, really, he's a p.u.s.s.y. (Jesus!) cat at heart.

So, no, Billy doesn't show real repentance; that would be too girly. But his willingness to go back and try to help his wife and daughter are supposed to show us that his heart is in the right place.

(ETA all of the above is at odds with the Hungarian original, where per Wiki, the leading man spends 16 years in Purgatory and then heads off to an uncertain fate at the final curtain.)




Updated On: 4/28/13 at 08:39 PM

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 8:44pm

It could also be that I'm now used to more character development and background.

Perhaps back in the day, characters were accepted as larger-than-life archetypes and there wasn't as much emphasis in the book as it was in the music.

I'm just not as receptive of the first chunk of tunes as some of you seem to be. If I was more invested, maybe I would appreciate the piece and the characters a bit more.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 8:50pm

I agree Gaveston, Billy really is like an "over-grown boy", like what Julie said after he died. For me it isn't rocket science to understand these characters from an archetype (like what blaxx said) and an historical point of view. I truly love Carousel for not only the glorious music and lyrics but for a story that shows yet another side of human nature. It is simple indeed.

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 08:50 PM

[John Adams]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 8:50pm

>> "I would have to see a Billy that justifies Julie's infatuation. And a Billy that is crushed with remorse and trying to repair the damage.

You might be hoping for too much. (more like 'typical' happy-ending musical theater) - BUT other actors have portrayed Billy where that is possible (especially concerning why Julie chooses Billy).

I'm not sure that it would ever be "right" for Julie to be infatuated with Billy. I feel more like she feels he is what she deserves for herself, and loves him because she understands his pain. She does acknowledge to Carrie that she is better off without him when he dies. And yet... she practically scolds Carrie ("Don't you cry, Carrie") when she suggests that Billy is better off dead.

There's a lot to be appreciated in Carousel. Just curious... How did you feel about Next To Normal, or even better... have you seen the movie, KIDS?

For me, sometimes it's refreshing to see explorations of the world where life isn't always so rose-colored.


Updated On: 4/28/13 at 08:50 PM

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 9:04pm

There's a lot to be appreciated in Carousel. Just curious... How did you feel about Next To Normal, or even better... have you seen the movie, KIDS?

Well, Diana has the mental disability. The children from Kids are minors who don't understand the consequences of their actions.

But I found nothing in Billy's story to accept his behavior. I guess I'm just supposed to accept that's who he was, but I could care less if he dies or repents if I don't see what made him that way. Sure, we love an underdog but he's just a dog.

And the portrayal of submissive women, to the point of accepting spousal abuse, infuriates me.

I understand the simplicity of the piece, but for me it was puzzling. Maybe it takes time to digest.

I wasn't expecting a traditional Broadway narrative, but something about it felt incomplete to my modern audience eyes.

I can see why it a challenging piece to perform successfully.

[best12bars]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 9:49pm

But I found nothing in Billy's story to accept his behavior. I guess I'm just supposed to accept that's who he was, but I could care less if he dies or repents if I don't see what made him that way. Sure, we love an underdog but he's just a dog.

This is why Billy is such a difficult role to play. The key to "loving" him (if an audience can even get that far with the character) is in the magic he creates with and gives to Julie in the earlier scenes, particularly the park bench scene with "If I Loved You." If done right, it's transcendent.

Yes, it's all downhill from there, but if that scene works as intended, the audience is on Billy's side. If it's just a sweet love song, sung well, and acted nicely, then the audience won't ever be rooting for him to get his sh*t together and make good.

That's why Billy and (to only a slightly lesser degree) Julie are such tough roles to pull off. They can make or break the entire production with their chemistry and magic (or lack of it) together on the stage.

I saw Patrick Wilson play it with Sarah Uriarte Berry in the L..A. cast of the last revival, and they were magic together, absolutely.

And when it works, as intended, Carousel is one of the most powerful and emotionally complex musicals ever written.

To give you an idea, my dad was a first-nighter for many years with his family. He saw opening nights of Oklahoma!, Carousel, Brigadoon, Kiss Me, Kate, The King and I, South Pacific, Gypsy, West Side Story, Finnean's Rainbow, Streetcar, Death of a Salesman, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, Picnic, etc.

I had a couple of other older friends I met on the west coast who had also seen these original Broadway productions, and I invariably asked them, "Of all the shows you've seen over the years, what was your favorite musical?"

Every single one of them said Carousel.

[blaxx]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 10:03pm

I saw Patrick Wilson play it with Sarah Uriarte Berry in the L..A. cast of the last revival, and they were magic together, absolutely.

And when it works, as intended, Carousel is one of the most powerful and emotionally complex musicals ever written.

I believe you, I obviously just didn't get a good first impression. This cast had good singers, but they should have stuck to singing the score. The acting was so basic and impulsive.

It is complex, for sure. The character walks a very fine line between working or not very early in the show. I can see how it is easier to screw it up than to make us care.

Interesting responses, thanks all.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 10:14pm

John Raitt and Jan Clayton in the entire ten-minute scene on the bench. Ten perfect minutes.

http://youtu.be/ZpzVKAdCI9A



John Raitt's "Soliloquy":

http://youtu.be/CKCUapUEFkY

[Musical Master]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 10:21pm

Pal Joey, is there any video of Agnes De Mille's work in Carousel and what did you think of Warren Carlyle's choreography for the ballet in the NY Philharmonic production?

[phantomvegas2]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 10:35pm

If anyone recorded it on DVD, please let me know.

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 10:59pm

"O'Hara was an alright Julie but sometimes her soprano voice can be strained at times especially her rendition of "What's The Use of Wonderin" which the keys were lowered. "

No, they were not. Julie's second act solo was sung in D-flat by Kelli O'Hara as originally written. There were no transpositions for any of the songs in this New York Philharmonic production.

Updated On: 4/28/13 at 10:59 PM

[Musical Master]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 11:07pm

^Thank you for explaining it to me, but I thought "What's the Use of Wondrin" was sung slightly higher for sopranos like Jan Clayton and Shirley Jones (in the movie) O'Hara sounded a little lower than them.

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 11:08pm

"Billy messes up big-time, and gets a second chance to redeem himself.

But he doesn't! That's why this all makes no sense to me."

I really agree with this point, and that bothered me at first, but then after thinking about it some more over the next few days, I decided that the musical was much more true to life than if he had redeemed himself. He can make himself visible to his loved ones if he chooses, but he doesn't do that at the end - they basically get the messages they need to hear either from the graduation speaker (in the case of Louise) or from within (in the case of Julie). And in the end, I think that is more true to life. The people who hurt us and then die or leave us don't come back to give us closure by apologizing and telling us that they loved us. We have to give ourselves that closure by realizing that the world "belongs just as much to [us] as to the next person" (as the graduation speaker says, with Louise's keen interest), or by "knowing" that they loved us, as Julie decides to do, despite their severe flaws, including even violence.

**************Matilda spoiler below*****************
I think what bothered me so much about Matilda's ending, even though I liked the show overall, is that the child is lucky enough for her parents to give their blessing to her going to live with a loving guardian, whereas that is a rare stroke of luck that doesn't tend to happen in real life, so it has no message of hope for kids in Matilda's situation who aren't so lucky. It is just a happy and lucky ending for Matilda, which is nice, but that ending depends on outside luck. Matilda's only actions to "make things right" were to sabotage her parents in retaliation, which did not itself lead to her freedom in the end. I wanted it to give more hope to other children in her situation.
***************end Matilda spoiler******************

In Carousel, on the other hand, you don't have Louise's father coming back from the grave to teach her to overcome his hurtful legacy in a literal way (yes, the character is there next to her whispering to her, but she can't hear him in the context of the story - she "hears" his message coming from the graduation speaker, and it is only symbolically emphasized from Billy himself). So, she has to work that lesson out for herself by listening to it from people around her and figuring it out herself, much like in real life.

As for Julie, as i mentioned in an earlier post, it is unfortunately (!) not just a period problem that women and men stay with violent partners. The key to it in the show, and in most cases in real life as well, as that the violent person doesn't lead with violent jerkiness in the beginning of the relationship. If they did, they would never form a bond with the soon-to-be-battered spouse in the first place - the person would just walk away immediately. In most cases in real life as well as in Carousel, you first see the person fall in love with someone who is gentle and kind to her, and after they have married, he hits her in a bout of anger (one time, which they emphasize in the show, but it is early in their marriage and we now know that such things usually escalate rather than getting better). But someone who doesn't know that things can get better if she leaves and doesn't feel that she deserves better, and who sees the husband struggling and makes excuses for him such as his unhappiness and frustration due to unemployment, might think that it would turn around once that period of frustration is over.

When someone starts out gentle and kind and then changes to more jerky behavior, people sometimes look for external reasons for the change and assume that it is out of their character the first or second time it happens, and not unless it becomes the new normal do they realize that it was within them all along. That is why so many spouses stay with someone who has hit them - it is always followed by remorse and renewed kindness. If it weren't, making the decision to leave would be much easier. (Yes, I know it should be easy even after one incident, but that is not always the reality for everyone, and it doesn't mean that they "deserve" what they get with the violent spouse - they might need help seeing that they should leave.)

It is not an admirable trait that Julie stays with Billy and i don't think that the show portrays it as such (witness Julie's agreeing with Carrie that she is better off after Billy dies). But it is realistic for a certain segment of the population, and not a small one, whose stories are so rarely told. Billy is pretty much legitimately identified as a failure by the heaven-guide character. But what happens to his loved ones afterward is the real point of the story (at least for me), and not so much what happens to him. In other words, the story is a tragedy about a very flawed character, Billy, who affects the lives of Julie and Louise and it is about how they move on to better lives afterward. When well-acted, it also is easy to see how Billy's good qualities (being kind to Julie at first, wanting to provide for his child, however mis-guided the method) could have attracted her in the first place and thus started the sad story going.

Musical theatre has lots of telling the stories of happy, confident people falling in love. It doesn't have lots of stories about deeply flawed people falling in love, messing things up, hurting their kids, but then giving their kids hope for a better life because they can overcome their parents' hurtful legacy and don't have to be limited by it. That story resonates with a lot of people in a way that is rare in musical theatre. I think that is why Carousel is so loved by a great many people.







Updated On: 4/28/13 at 11:08 PM

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 4/28/13 at 11:47pm

Billy is an uncouth whore and the older I got, I realized that the bench scene was very much about the sexual attraction between Julie and Billy. Before the bench scene, Billy was bragging about some conquest of his in Coney Island, Julie knew he was Mrs. Mullin's sex toy and that girls were throwing themselves at Billy. Yet Julie did not care because she finally had Billy where she wanted him. Julie was fine with getting fired just so she could be alone with Billy despite her protestations that she was "never gonna marry" and that she had to be "more particular" to preserve her purported virtue. Their declarations of love never went beyond the hypothetical while Billy was alive though they did grow to truly love one another albeit in JERRY SPRINGER and MAURY POVICH style. Billy and Julie are, to put it crudely, white trash and were treated accordingly by those around them, especially the cop and Julie's boss at the mill. And sadly, Julie's learned helplessness brought with it a resignation that that was her lot in life: she remained with her physically and psychologically abusive husband because she justified it by believing that that's just the way Billy was built and who was. There was no point in Julie's view in wondering or imagining a different kind of life for herself because Julie was Billy's, that was that and there was nothing left to be done or said about their doomed relationship and marriage. In that sense, Billy and Julie remind me a bit of Stanley and Stella Kowalski though CAROUSEL's treatment of sexuality was not as graphically discussed as in STREETCAR.

[A Director]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 12:55am

I saw the broadcast and liked it for the most part. How wonderful to hear the score played by a 72 piece orchestra. To my ears, the singing was wonderful.

I can understand people not liking this production and not liking the show. Carousel is darker than any other major R&H musical. The 1945 production only ran for about 800 performances. To me, The Sound of Music is a so-so musical, but it ran longer than Carousel. I think the beach scene is one of the best written scenes in musical theatre. "Soliloquy" is one of the best songs for a male in musical theatre.
I wonder if it would help if there was a scene between the beach scene and the scene at Nettie's where we see Julie and Billy happy? It might help us ease into the rest of the story.

I do have a problem with people reducing Julie and Billy to people on Jerry Springer or Maury Povich. There is nothing sensational about Julie and Billy. They are not white trash! Julie's boss does not treat her as such. He treats her as an unmarried young girl working in his factory. In his way of thinking, young girls should not be seen with someone like Billy. He is willing to forgive her if she will go along with him back to where she lives. I think it's important to remember in this community, Billy is an outsider. We don't know how long he has been in town or how long he will stay. I think the sad thing about Julie and Billy is they are two people who can't express their feelings. They finally say I love you when it is too late.

[vf]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 1:04am

There have always been women who have taken way too much crap, see today's article in NYTimes about reaction to Rihanna's controversial reconciliation with Chris Brown, who beat her up so badly (really hard to figure, she's gorgeous, young, rich= she has plenty of options)http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/business/media/rihanna-and-chris-browns-relationship-divides-the-public.html

I heard on Sirius recently for first time Billy Holiday singing "Ain't Nobody's Business" with these lyrics:
"If my man ain't got no money and I say, "Take all of mine, honey"
Ain't nobody's business if I do
If I give him my last nickel and it leaves me in a pickle
Ain't nobody's business if I do

Well, I'd rather my man would hit me
Than [for] him to jump up and quit me
Ain't nobody's business if I do
I swear I won't call no copper, if I'm beat up by my papa
Ain't nobody's business if I do, nobody's business
Ain't nobody's business, nobody's business if I do"
http://www.metrolyrics.com/aint-nobodys-business-if-i-do-lyrics-billie-holiday.html

Here's what I heard, catchy tune with a big band back-up. Lots of brass + those lyrics is kind of disconcerting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQok4Ejl4ms

Anyway, I think maybe the innovation was that R & H was willing to bring the subject of spousal abuse up. Under the restrictive motion picture code, movies in 1945 still had to have married couples sleep in separate beds, not too much depiction of real life in movies at that time, I think. I get the impression that Broadway actually was the edgier medium back then and maybe just having a lead character guilty of such abuse was daring. Of course he had to die. Maybe the last line of the story, when Julie seems to accept his abuse, is really about forgiveness, after all he'd been dead for so long and she was just sort of being introspective? (Really want a solution for that ending, if she's talking to herself, it's OK, if it's advice to her daughter it's awful)

I love that Jan Clayton/John Raitt youtube so much. I think she is so sweet and sort of awestruck of this older guy who has definitely lived more, and Raitt is so hunky and sings so fantastically, while he's full of himself he is also taken with her sweetness and open nature, that scene makes sense of their attraction better than O'Hara/Gunn. I LOVE Kelli O'Hara, but maybe because she was a little old for the role they decided Julie had given up on getting a feller, maybe that's why she got that awful wig too, to dowdy her up. Which makes Julie sort of a doormat in waiting. Clayton's "I'm never gonna marry" sounds sort of like a youthful spunky declaration of independence, while O'Hara's saying it seems sort of sad. Plus back then, pre-contraception, pre-antibiotics, pre-Csections, pre- modern conveniences (just doing the laundry for 11 people!) I can imagine not wanting to marry might have been a choice women actually made a lot. Then there's only that one scene of Clayton, so I'm assuming a lot about her Julie, but she doesn't seem to have given up like O'Hara's Julie and being willing to settle for any man, even an obvious jerk like Gunn's Billy. Clayton & Raitt were the original Julie & Billie so I guess that's how R & H envisioned it, though there's no reason not to vary from that. But I'm so glad that Clayton/Raitt youtube exists.

Although I enjoyed this, if lack of rehearsal time raises questions about the performances and even the musical, maybe they shouldn't even do it like this. Then again, Carrie and Mr. Snow were great, maybe the thing is if you're going to do this with so little rehearsal, get a real actor to play Billy. It's hard to know how this would have turned out if an actor had played Billy so their relationship would have made more sense. O'Hara was really touching, the heart and soul of this, but it's hard to see her so sad, I want her to play a cock-eyed optimist forever!

[vf]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 1:29am

Wow, jsg03jd, not sure how this reminded you of Jerry Springer and Streetcar Named Desire. I'm kind of offended by your calling poor people trash.

I think Julie is a young, naive, sweet girl. She may work in a factory, but that doesn't make her trash. Billy is also not trash. He's broke, has no skills and he hangs around with losers, but he's taken by Julie's sweetness and loves the idea of being a Dad. He's not too smart and wrecks his life, but what's the point of calling him trash? Is Rihanna trash? People do a lot of things for a lot of reasons. If you're not interested in the complications of human behavior, maybe you should just stick to Jerry Springer. And all this sexual stuff you're seeing in their first conversation, huh?? They're sitting in a public park on a bench. There's no reason to think Julie knows all about Billy's relationship with his boss.

That Gunn played Billy without any heart or charm is Gunn's fault not the character's. Billy is a conflicted guy, he had no money or skills but he chose a sweet, poor girl for a wife, he rejected his boss who has some money. Two broke people married for love, by all means condemn them. And broke then meant no welfare, no food stamps, no child support laws, nothing for the mother and child, what were all of Julie's choices? Billy's frustrations are rooted in his poverty. Unfortunately he took it out on Julie, but that doesn't make either of them trash. We're lucky to live in a time when there are more choices and more help for people with problems. Updated On: 4/29/13 at 01:29 AM

[broadwaybabe1234]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 1:44am

This is kind of a weird question but does anyone else feel like carousel is postulating what would have happened if Laurie had picked Jud (From oklahoma), just in another time and place?

Billy kind of stands for the same things for Julie that Laurie sees in Jud. With Carousel coming right after Oklahoma, i thought the two might be connected.

[jsg03jd]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 2:18am

The 1994 revival at Lincoln Center helmed by Nicholas Hytner really brought out the sexual undertones in IF I LOVED YOU, which was played out not on the traditional bench but with Michael Hayden and Sally Murphy rolling around on a knoll and highly suggesting that Billy and Julie consummated their attraction at the conclusion of IF I LOVED YOU. I also recall that production's souvenir program noting that the themes of CAROUSEL will always resonate because, among other things, women like Julie were staples of daytime talk shows saying they stay in abusive relationships simply because they love their man. Another poster noted the Rihanna and Billie Holiday examples to underscore this issue that CAROUSEL tackles in an effort to force the audience to think long and hard about these not so clean cut issues such as spousal abuse and socioeconomic divisions in society. After all, Carrie and Enoch climbed the social ladder and left Julie and Louise behind. Enoch Jr. outright said that were he to marry Louise, he'd be marrying someone beneath his station. Julie's boss also commented that folks like Julie just cannot be helped because she was, again for lack of a better term, trash as was Billy.

I love this piece because of all the things that make it antithetical to something like THE SOUND OF MUSIC. And someone who was interviewed for this recent production commented during the feature that was played during intermission about how visceral the physical attraction was between Julie and Billy in this latest production. It's all there in the text and music but of course everyone is free to find their own interpretations of those key early scenes in CAROUSEL.

[Fan123]

Posted: 4/29/13 at 8:49am

Interesting discussion. broadwaybabe1234, I've always vaguely thought that Carousel was like the "this is what would REALLY have happened" version of Carnival, even though Carousel came first.
Regarding comparing "Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man of Mine" to "What's The Use Of Wonderin' ", to my memory the use of "Can't Help..." could be seen as a critique of that kind of blind love. The first time the song comes up it's done cheerfully, but the second time it comes around, Magnolia and Julie are living the reality/consequences of that philosophy and so it comes across as sad. (Is the line "It must be something that the angels done planned" generally omitted from the second version? That would make sense) It's harder take that kind of interpretation with "What's the use...", though I still love Carousel.

ETA: Regarding the graduation-scene ending of Carousel, I would prefer to see it done so that Louise and Julie don’t visibly react to Billy when he tries to speak to them, and he realises this. Maybe they do see/hear him, maybe they don’t; he can’t be sure. Maybe they hear and they just don’t want/need to listen to him. By that point he has certainly rescinded any right to give them advice or to be involved in their lives, several times over, both morally and literally by the Starkeeper’s own rules. He may be aching to help them now, but his own actions have made him powerless to do so, and he should feel that. I think I’d like him more that way – I would probably even see his realisation of that as more ‘redemptive’ than seeing him succeed in helping.
And BTW, I don’t have a problem with Julie and Billy being called “white trash” here. It seems to me that the point is they’re lower-class compared to many of the other characters, and are unfortunately judged by others and by themselves accordingly.
Updated On: 4/29/13 at 08:49 AM