Sweeney Todd - A Little Priest Question- Page 2

[StageManager2]

Posted: 9/5/10 at 3:07pm

BTW: jasonf, that's like when Henry Higgins sings "By law she should be taken out and hung / for the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue." A grammar nazi like he would know it's "hanged."

Also, in "An Ordinary Man" he keeps saying "... than to ever let a woman in my life." It really should be "... than EVER to let a woman in my life." But I suppose it hurts the music... or rhyme in the case above.

Still, it goes against character.

Updated On: 9/5/10 at 03:07 PM

[tazber]

Posted: 9/5/10 at 3:15pm

Ha! I never got the poet line either. It's such a great rhyme it never really bothered me, but AEA AGMA SM's explanation makes it that much sweeter.

Thanks!

[Scripps2]

Posted: 9/6/10 at 2:05pm

In the original London production, Sheila Hancock used to ad-lib "That'll be 2 and 6" after the "privates" line.

It's a reference to Britsh currency of the time (two shillings and sixpence) but equally it could put you in mind of something else.


"I had a prof. at school who said this song was perfect except for one mistake -- in England, politicians "stand" for office not "run" as in "Here's a politician so oily it's served with a doily have one. Put it on a bun, well you never know if it's going to run"

Thanks Jasonf - your prof is correct. I've only just understood that line as a result of reading your post.
Updated On: 9/6/10 at 02:05 PM

[A Little Priest]

Posted: 9/6/10 at 2:14pm

Good to know I'm not the only one who didn't get the poet line. Thanks for the explanation, AEA AGMA SM!

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 9/6/10 at 9:51pm

Forgive me for a brief treadjack, but the "stand/run" distinction puts me in mind of various threads complaining about Tim Rice et. al rhyming poorly. Many of the rhymes Americans object to are perfectly legit in UK pronunciation.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 9/6/10 at 10:53pm

This is true--a very common example of this is the use of the word "again," which I believe is pronounced by the English as both "uh-gen" and "uh-gain." When used by a lyricist with the latter pronunciation to make a rhyme with another word("pain," "rain," etc.), it doesn't rhyme if you're an American singer and using the former.

BTW, in regards to Henry Higgins, it has always bothered me that he sings "If I was a woman..." when correct English would require him to sing "If I WERE a woman." Just sayin'. The character would certainly know that!

[weaselprince71]

Posted: 5/18/14 at 6:00pm

Funny, I always thought it was a roundabout reference to the phrase "[...in the words of] the Immortal Poet" -- suggesting, in this context, "how do you know whether you haven't perhaps stumbled onto a truly "immortal" poet who, to a slyly literal mind, would NEVER be 'deceased' ?"

Bit of a stretch, I know, but that's what I always thought.

Although, come to think of it, I guess the more usual phrase is "the Immortal Bard," almost always meaning Shakespeare specifically; while at other times the phrase is given as "in the immortal words of [whoever]...", immortality more plausibly accruing to the words in question, rather than to their author.

So there goes that.

In the immortal words of Tom Stoppard: "One does not aim at poetry with pistols. At poets, perhaps." Likewise, you can't eat poetry, as the saying goes (and as Mrs. Lovett would surely agree). Poets, perhaps? It makes some weird intuitive sense that Sweeney (a sort of proto-goth himself, as Tim Burton couldn't resist needlessly underlining) would be curious about their (literal) flavor -- and that pragmatic Mrs. L. would try to steer his gustatory enthusiasm toward the stabler, less-wispy professions.







Updated On: 5/19/14 at 06:00 PM

Posted: 5/18/14 at 6:25pm

Poets sit and ponder. They might sit for hours. How do you know it's deceased?

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 5/18/14 at 6:43pm

I've always been too embarrassed to ask what, "no it has to be grocer - it's green" means.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 5/18/14 at 6:56pm

In the UK, people who run fruit and vegetable shops are called "greengrocers."

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 5/18/14 at 6:58pm

What might have been, if she'd given up the pie shop and changed her name ever so slightly.



Updated On: 5/18/14 at 06:58 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/18/14 at 7:26pm

"This is especially embarrassing considering my username, but I've never quite understood why the trouble with poet is, how do you know it's deceased?

No need for embarrassment; the lyric is complicated enough I'm sure we all missed some of the references at first.

Nonetheless, I can't think of a single song that made me laugh out loud so many times the first time I heard it. And, to me, the biggest laugh of all was the poet line, which AEA explains quite well.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 9:47am

Two SWEENEY lyric questions:

When Toby sings, ”Being close and being clever ain’t like being true,” how is he using “close” here? I’ve always thought it a British usage I’m unfamiliar with, perhaps meaning something along the lines of “careful” or “cautious,” but that doesn’t seem parallel with “clever” and makes the contrast with “being true” a little awkward.

In the second one, I feel like I’m missing something more obvious, but I can’t logic it out. In “By the Sea,” Lovett sings, “We shouldn’t try it, though, till it’s legal for two-hoo!”

Till what’s legal for two? The seaside wedding? Is it legal for one, but not two?

Sex? If her bedding is already rumpled, haven’t they already “tried it”? What am I missing?

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:06am

I think he means "close" as in "secretive," which is the fourth definition in "Webster's." He's saying Todd is secretive and clever, not honest and true.

I've always thought that at this point Todd and Mrs. L. haven't slept together--and she says they shouldn't until they're married. I think her bedding has been rumpled by others, not by Todd. So she's painting a rosy picture of their future together but wants to be clear that she's talking marriage, not just a roll in the hay.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:07am

I've always heard the "By the Sea" line as, in a house at the seaside they'd need to be married as opposed to dirty London and the pie shop.
Also, that Lovett is throwing it out there to see if he'll bite at the idea of their marrying.

Toby's line is a contrast between Sweeney (close and clever) and Toby (true). Toby's feeling her out to see if she'll be able to see that Sweeney is evil, as Toby sees him.
Close means close. Unless a Brit here can offer another meaning.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:17am

Thanks for the responses, guys. I think I favor Reg’s explanations on both questions, though one thing still nags me. I know there’s debate about whether Lovett and Todd have a sexual relationship. As it’s deliberately ambiguous in the text, I’m not sure that I have a strong opinion one way or another and feel it can be played effectively both ways. But if she’s indeed referring to her bedding having been rumpled by other men in the past, surely marrying Sweeney wouldn’t legitimize those rolls in the hay? Or is she being willfully naïve?

[newintown]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:32am

I'm not sure why Lovett would talk about her other men (if there were any) directly to Sweeney; I also find it more interesting to assume that the rumpled bedding was rumpled by Sweeney, that Lovett has taken advantage of his madness to take care of all her needs.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:38am

That makes sense, too. I sort of imagine Sweeney as barely eating, much less having sex, so bent is he on his revenge. But it's open to either interpretation.

And you're right, growl, marriage doesn't erase past indiscretions. Though I don't think Mrs. L's logic is ever airtight.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:40am

"I also find it more interesting to assume that the rumpled bedding was rumpled by Sweeney, that Lovett has taken advantage of his madness to take care of all her needs."

That's usually how Lovetts and Sweeneys I’ve seen play it, or at least how their playing it has read to me.

“And you're right, growl, marriage doesn't erase past indiscretions. Though I don't think Mrs. L's logic is ever airtight.”

Indeed. So this may be a case – much like my bygone objection to a lyric in GYPSY (which I won’t specifically cite again for fear of reprisals) – where, for one listener it’s a quirk of the character that makes them “colorful,” but for me, I feel the lyricist’s hand slipping a bit.

Updated On: 5/19/14 at 10:40 AM

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:50am

"I sort of imagine Sweeney as barely eating, much less having sex..."

No one said the sex was good!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:50am

I always interpreted it similarly to doodlenyc: They've "rumpled the sheets" together in London, but Mrs. Lovett's fantasy of life in a cottage by the sea adheres to more Victorian mores, so they'd have to "devise" a seaside wedding to "legit-i-mize" her already-rumpled (with him) bedding.

That said, he was probably as involved in and excited about rumpling her as he is throughout this song: "Anything you say, anything you say..."

Updated On: 5/19/14 at 10:50 AM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:51am

For me, the rumpled bedding line comes down to what's funniest. I would argue the funniest option is also the cleanest. Their relationship has become carnal...and I think if you spend too much time thinking about 'Wait...did they or didn't they?' you're taken out of the song too much. I would also argue that A LITTLE PRIEST is the longest, wittiest bit of musical foreplay that the theater has ever seen. It's the first time they sing to each other and with each other. It's a consummation of the relationship.

[devonian.t]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:53am

I think the rumpled bedding has been legitimitized by marriage- that is why it exists. Prior to the wedding there no rumpled sheets.

I am surprised that there is so much confusion over A Little Priest which has always seemed very obvious to a Brit's ears.

One other point to pick up: not only do British politicians not run, but we also tend not to eat meat in a bun. Prior to colonisation by MacDonalds we would certainly only ever have used the term "roll" rather than "bun" which only referred to a sweet cake, as in "sticky buns", (which of course none of us want to suffer from...)

Just to confirm, the British navy rank is Rear Admiral.

And the second laugh comes on "with is extra" as it just reinforces Mrs L's materialistic nature, always looking to make a little more money.

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:54am

Rumpled-bedding questions aside, I'm still wondering what legality she's questioning...

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:55am

I'm guessing she won't buy a house with him till they're married?