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[bethnor]

Posted: 6/21/17 at 11:37pm

javero said: "I remain a fan of Hitchens and an avowed atheist.  But, I'm neither a Hitchens d*ck-worshiper nor dogmatic in my refutation of the beliefs of others.  We have little choice but give others time to evolve from their present truth to the realm of rationale thought.  I don't see the immediate benefits of beating them over the head with the message.  Carry on as you wish though.

 

"

but we're not even doing that.  i "carry on" because by pure accident, i am lucky enough to have escaped the worst of this, and unlike many LGBT, i make enough money to take care of myself.  i've lived a good life on this planet, but it doesn't belong to me or anyone else posting in this thread.  future generations deserve a chance, but the way the abrahamic traditions are carrying on, we are a stone's throw away from something terrible.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 8:21am

The man who purposefully attacked Muslims in the U.K. didn't do so because he was Christian- he did it to attack Muslims because he believed all Muslims were terrorists. And attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread are what fuels something like that. You can talk about how enlightened you are as much as you'd like, but this rhetoric is no different than what comes out of the mouth of Donal Trump. 

As an aside, the people responsible for 73% of terrorist attacks in the United States since 9/11 aren't Muslims, but the far-right and Neo-Nazis. I do genuinely believe that this is an incredibly dangerous time to be a Muslim person in America, and it's this kind of bigotry cloaked in "intellectualism" that's helping to fuel that fire. 73% of US terror attacks since 9/11 carried out but far-right people, mostly aimed at Muslims

[Kad]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 11:37am

qolbinau said: "
And Kad - you make fun but your paragraph perfectly describes the situation. If you are not an atheist of course you are not enlightened or close to the truth, which unfortunately does describe the overwhelming majority of the population. And if you are a 'liberal' that won't acknowledge the absolute atrocities that Islam causes for Muslims mainly and some non-Muslims across the world, how can you really describe yourself as a progressive person or think you actually care about Muslims? 

I just hope that the disagreement here is with my tone or arrogance etc  - no one seems to directly respond here to my post but if you honestly believe there is nothing wrong with religion and this particular belief system in particular I don't know what possible evidence you could need to convince otherwise. I would have thought the human rights violations and terrorist attacks would be enough  "

 

As I've written before, I am an atheist. I take major issue with your tone and arrogance, which at best is just borne of the narrow-viewed superiority of being convinced of ideas that have the safety of remaining theoretical and at worst just swaps out the very things you decry about religion for a secular equivalent.

Who here is arguing- or even would argue- that religious extremism is a positive and acceptable thing?! I take issue with the xenophobic Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn, who do things like vote in blocs to pack school boards for a public school system they don't even use simply to disenfranchise largely Caribbean populations in the district and drive them out.  

However, I don't think religion is the root cause. I think human nature is the root cause and religion is merely the justification. Just as many things are used as justification for human cruelty. Science has been used to justify it. Patriotism has been used to justify it. Profit has been used to justify it. The fact that your ideal world is to see the people of the world think and believe as you do could be used to justify it, too, eventually.

Human history is written in blood and, pessimistic or cynical as it may be, I think accepting that is necessary.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 12:51pm

wonderfulwizard11 said: "And attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread are what fuels something like that. You can talk about how enlightened you are as much as you'd like, but this rhetoric is no different than what comes out of the mouth of Donal Trump."

Do you think all criticism of Islam is off limits? What about criticism of Catholicism, Mormonism, or Scientology?

I think you'd have to admit that there are some big problems within Islam - especially in countries where it's the majority and/or established religion. Does spirited discussion of these problems become bigotry because Muslims are a sometimes oppressed minority here, whereas the other religions are part of the mainstream?

[mar6411]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 1:01pm

Kad - thank you.  Well said.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 1:09pm

Kad said: "Human history is written in blood and, pessimistic or cynical as it may be, I think accepting that is necessary."

I don't know if I agree with this. Although there have been many fits and starts, the history of the Western world has seen a slow transition from all-encompassing mysticism and irrationality to acceptance of science and reason as a means to improve human existence. Even more clearly, I think, it's also seen a transition from serfdom and slavery to relative freedom and justice, and a sharp decrease in rates of violence. I don't think that's a coincidence, and I don't see why it can't continue.

[wonderfulwizard11]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 1:21pm

Nowhere in my post did I say that any criticism of Islam or majority Muslim countries is off limits. But if your response to terrorism committed by Muslims is "well, of course, they're naturally more violent because they're Muslims"- that is bigotry and that is what is causing the uptick in anti-Muslim sentiment in the United States, which in turn helps fuel the argument of groups like ISIS. "All religion is bad" and "all Muslims are violent because of their religion" are not nuanced takes and helps no one, regardless of how enlightened you claim to be. 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 1:25pm

I'm gathering you weren't really addressing me, though it can be hard to tell, because admittedly I have some sympathy for qolbinau's position on religion. He's certainly a little more committed than I am, though. :)

[Kad]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 2:06pm

kdogg36 said: "Kad said: "Human history is written in blood and, pessimistic or cynical as it may be, I think accepting that is necessary."

I don't know if I agree with this. Although there have been many fits and starts, the history of the Western world has seen a slow transition from all-encompassing mysticism and irrationality to acceptance of science and reason as a means to improve human existence. Even more clearly, I think, it's also seen a transition from serfdom and slavery to relative freedom and justice, and a sharp decrease in rates of violence. I don't think that's a coincidence, and I don't see why it can't continue."

Yet the price for our Western rationality and science-borne freedom has often come at the cost of sweatshops overseas, crippling debts, pollution and destruction caused by mining and production of resources, destabilizing meddling in the affairs of foreign lands whose cultures we don't fully understand, and the creation of a powerful oligarchy.

Slavery and serfdom may be abolished in the West, but humanity's destructive impulses aren't exactly checked.
 

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 02:06 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 2:41pm

Well, I don't want to minimize the atrocities that have been committed and continue to be committed. I'm the last one to do that. So it makes me a little uncomfortable to say that, by most measures, humans are better off all across the world than they were in previous centuries. People live longer, fewer are in poverty, and there's less violence than before. It can be hard to see this among all the apparent chaos, but I believe the numbers are there to back it up.

Climate change could potentially destroy any progress that has been made. I'm certainly not a denier, but I do think that there's a good chance that we'll find technological solutions before the effects cause widespread disaster. (Incidentally, there really is a powerful consensus on human-caused climate change, but not one on how catastrophic its effects will be.)

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 3:27pm

...by most measures, humans are better off all across the world than they were in previous centuries. People live longer, fewer are in poverty, and there's less violence than before. It can be hard to see this among all the apparent chaos, but I believe the numbers are there to back it up.

 

Is this still true when you consider the ginormous increase in the planet's population? There are many billions more people around today than there were in previous centuries. World population* 1800 = 1 billion, 1900 = 1.6 billion, 2017 = 7 billion...so you might say that there is in fact more suffering now than ever before.  This is what makes me pessimistic about climate change, and so much more. I'm doing my bit for humanity by not reproducing. It's all downhill from here, folks.

Maybe I'm just having an off day.

* Stats per google

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 4:40pm

Admittedly I'm talking about rates rather than absolute numbers. 

[binau]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 7:14pm

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Updated On: 12/19/19 at 07:14 PM

[South Florida]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 11:18pm

Brevity is a lost art.  qolbinau you've become unreadable.

 

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 6/22/17 at 11:39pm

SMDH....reading this thread is mind blowing, and the way some of you who have posted have truly contributed to the way this country is heading. It's downright scary...Some of you are so me sanctimonious, self righteous asshats....I truly hope you will choke on the crap you choose to espew...

[binau]

Posted: 6/23/17 at 12:14am

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Updated On: 12/19/19 at 12:14 AM

[binau]

Posted: 6/23/17 at 5:20am

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Updated On: 12/19/19 at 05:20 AM

[binau]

Posted: 6/24/17 at 10:07pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/opinion/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-asra-q-nomani-respond-to-readers.html

[A Director]

Posted: 6/24/17 at 11:16pm

qolbinau said: "An Islamic country removing the teaching of Evolution in schools - genius. 
 

Duh!  There are states, communities and school districts who have banned the teaching of Evolution in this country.
 

 

"

 

[A Director]

Posted: 6/24/17 at 11:20pm

qolbinau said: "https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/opinion/ayaan-hirsi-ali-and-asra-q-nomani-respond-to-readers.html

The comments by these two women have settled the issue.  No other opinions are needed.  Time to move on.

qolbinau - You are as dogmatic as many religious leaders.  You probably worship Sam Harris!

 

"

 

[binau]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 8:26am

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Updated On: 12/19/19 at 08:26 AM

[binau]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 8:27am

A Director said: "qolbinau said: "An Islamic country removing the teaching of Evolution in schools - genius. 
 

Duh!  There are states, communities and school districts who have banned the teaching of Evolution in this country.
 

 

"

 

 

"

Is that true? Awful. People should be rioting on the streets. It is literally the intellectual abuse of children. 

 

[South Florida]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 6:49pm

It amuses me these statements with their backup.  You can believe anything you want to believe in this world and then back it up with a source.  Qolbinau seems to be an addict.  Stick to what you know professor.

[binau]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 1:35am

....

Updated On: 12/19/19 at 01:35 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 8:52am

qolbinau said: "I struggle to find any real evidence that many religious 'beliefs' have any truth to them."

I wouldn't bother. In my experience, the specific claims of religious people, by their own admission, cannot be explained using evidence and reason.

Wondering whether observable properties of the universe suggest the existence of a creator is an interesting metaphysical discussion. But when people claim to know specific details about that creator, and how the creation happened, and what the creator wants us to do on a daily basis - well, that just seems like a form of dementia to me.