Schwartz vs. Sondheim- Page 5

[WalveMalve]

Posted: 6/14/06 at 2:49pm

I'd just like to point out that that was Stephen Schwartz's second time seeing Sweeney, he left the first performance early. This has circulated the rumor mill as being him "walking out" on the show; however, he had no intention of staying for the entire performance as he had apparent schedule conflicts.

But that's not important.

I'd like to emphasize that Sondheim has also had a profound influence on other composers; take, for example: Jonathan Larson who worshiped Sondheim.

Otherwise, I pretty much completely agree with sondheim78. If you sit down and analyze the theory behind all of Sondheim's work and then compare it to Schwartz, there is a definite superiority on the former of the composers.

Furthermore, Schwartz success *lately* has been primarily due to his ability to figure out what has been a show stopping formula: loud, belting pop numbers with a focus specifically on a climactic ending. In other words, the songs are pumped full of energy and volume but look at the song on paper and it lacks any musical or lyrical validity.

If we look at Wicked, these songs include: The Wizard and I (and its reprise), Defying Gravity, No Good Deed, Dancing Through Life, and As Long As You're Mine -- That's roughly half the score and pretty much encompasses every popular song in it with the exceptions of Popular and For Good.

If we look at CoE (which I agree is better than Wicked, but certainly no comparison to Into the Woods) we have songs like: The Spark of Creation, A World Without You, Lost in the Wilderness, Stranger to the Rain, In Whatever Time We Have, and Sailor of the Skies.

Pippin, I concur is successful mainly due to the work Bob Fosse did with it.

I'd also like to add that being an intricate composer and witty and intelligent lyricist at the same time is extremely rare. Perhaps this is because music tends to be very mathematical and lyrics tend to be very poetic -- which as another thread is pointing out, requires both sides of the brain.

Schwartz has rarely written a song that doesn't suffer due to his lyrics, his music is nice, it's fun, it's energetic, it's enjoyable. But, when it comes down to it, it's shallow: Sondheim attempts to explore the human condition -- Schwartz tends to only succeed with fairy tales.

I really don't think Schwartz can compare with Sondheim; I think perhaps a better discussion would be between Schwartz, Andrew Lippa and Jason Robert Brown (I think JRB is the superior) or, as is already pointed out, Sondheim, Adam Guettel and LaChiusa.

[??]

Posted: 6/14/06 at 3:41pm

I think it is silly to ask a comparison of two very different writers and then say "just on melody" alone, Judas.

Shwartz has some good work and some great melodies yes, but this doesn't necessarily make a good song. What would we have if Sondheim wrote Sweeney Todd wanting people to leave humming the music?

A great composer understands that overall the show and the music need to flow, too often do we have "acting acting acting...stop....sing a big song....acting acting". The brilliance of Sondheim, and I use Sweeney as the best example, is that the music is written to flow seemlessly with the show. If you were to take out all the dialogue and lyrics of Sweeney and just listen to a full instrumental, you would notice and swells and builds JUST like the tension in the show. Anyone with a basic knowledge of the plot would know exactly whats going on, who has entered and even the THOUGHTS of characters (for example, listen to the wigmaker sequence, you can just feel Sweeneys plot forming).

Now this isn't to say Shwartz cant do the same thing. The music in Godspell is powerful but it follows the "now it's time for a song" sequence. The music just doesn't flow, putting We Beseech Thee in a tense, dramatic part of the show totally takes away from the building tension. Shwartz, I find seperates the music and the natural action of the show while Sondheim molds them together.

Then again, can anyone here really honestly say the first time they heard Sondheim, they liked him? I can't, his music grows on you...for exactly the reasons you mentioned Judas, overall lack of hummable melody. This isn't to say he doesn't have melodies...but they are different, odd, dissonant. You listen to Godspell, you tap your foot, sing along. You listen to "Assasins"... it's weird, you put it away, listen to it more and grow to like it.

And then, you have to consider what composers DO with their work. What message do they send. Shwartz, I find, misses an overall message alot of the time. Sure, Godspell is about community and Pippin is about finding who you are but what does Wicked tell you? What does a Disney score tell you? Nothing. Sondheim has written some amazingly meaningful pieces....notably from Into the Woods. That each song tells a message and has the characters discover that message as well as the audience is genius.


I'm afraid that overall Sondheim is the better composer. Yes he takes some getting used to and you really have to try sometimes to like him. And yes he is the poster child for pseudo intellectuals who like to pretend their sophisticated because they appreciate Sondheim, but in reality go home and listen to Grease.

To ask whos better based on melody...well you could probably make a good argument for Shwartz. But to look overall at a PIECE of theatre and have it flow seemlessly, make a statement and treat action, dialogue, music and lyrics as one symphony....well, thats Sondheim all the way.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 6/14/06 at 3:43pm

Is this thread serious?

Any idiot with any real respect for theater knows that...








SCHWARTZ ROX MY SOX 1111 HE DA BEST WICKED 4 EVER LOLZ OMG!!!!!!11111~~~~!!!!

[JudasIscariot]

Posted: 6/14/06 at 3:59pm

Woah, this thread died like two months ago, why revive it?

I just want to say that I NEVER said that I didn't like Sondheim. I love Sondheim, Sweeney and Assassins are GREAT shows. I just like Schwartz better.

Can we let this thread die again?

[ILoveMyDictionary]

Posted: 6/14/06 at 4:13pm

"I do have to say (despite my last post) too much of Schwartz's reputation lately has been based entirely on Wicked. Let's not forget that Schwartz also wrote Pippin, Godspell, The Baker's Wife, Children of Eden, and those Disney films -- all of which have some pretty great stuff in them. Comparable to Sondheim? No, but I don't think we need to bash Schwartz either to make the point that Sondheim is superior."

Agreed. I'm sick and tired of Shwartz being known for Wicked and Wicked alone.

[broadway86]

Posted: 6/14/06 at 5:14pm

Pippin is a great show, West Side is not.

I respect your opinion, but I totally disagree with that.