Sondheim's Bounce--opinions?

Posted: 5/17/07 at 4:00am

OK so I know this was prob discussed on here when the CD came out and before--and I've already discusses it a lot on the various Sondheim forums--but as part of my obssessive listening of all the Sondheim show albums in order I finally got to Bounce tonight... and wanted to discuss it.

Now I'm sure some replies on here will just be "it sucks" (I know a few people listed it under cast albums they regret buying) which is fine but I'd like to hear more...

I still can't make up my mind on this score (I know nothing of the show and how the Hal Prince production looked--annoying the booklet has NO pics--except for this kinda great clip of Creel singing Talent on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKVe_Lshcg4 ) and it drives me a little bit crazy, being as Sondheim obssessed as I am.

Anyway--I do like the score. I don't think it's just because I'm so big into Sondheim and his music has been such an important part of my life for the past 15 years--but I admit that probably plays a part.

Something's missing though. When I play the CD I'm always surprised--I like it better than I remember and enjoy the listen. But unlike every other Sondheim CD I own (including Forum, etc) I have no desire to immediately replay parts of it when it's over--or the next day.

A big part of it may be the story and the way it's told--it seems Sondheim wants to go for his most Broadway score since Merrily (and indeed a lot of it reminds me--for whatever reason--musically of snatches of Merrily)--but Merrily, while a flawed show, musically ahs so much that really grabs at your emotions. Though Bounce has elements in the story that SHOULD do this (especially for me as I've suffered from sibling jealousy, etc) everythign seems kinda covered up by some sort of "musical comedy" distancing technique that works at odds with the project I think.

Prince and Weidman and Sondheim seemHell bent that this is a Vaudevillian style musical comedy and nothing in the story (except I guess the whirlwind of adventures and locations and characters--but nothing thematically) makes me feel that way. We get moments like Addison's final song of epiphany in the characters but it just doesn't resonate like, say, similar moments in Sunday in the Park do.

Sound wise it also oddly reminds me a LOT of Sondheim's first, Saturday Night (and a large part of this I think is due to John Tunick's orchestrations--he afterall did this score and Saturday Night's orchestrations around the same time). But there's another part of my prob--Sat Night has an insanely light and inconsequential libretto with very melodic, breezy songs. It feels liek for some reason Sondheim wants to go for a similar type of score for this--and it feels to me at odds with the material.

I dunno, hard for me to explain so I'd like to hear other people's opinions. It's true also that more than any other Sondheim score I hear bits of past Sondheim musical moments all over the place--but that's probably unfair of me to say as it's at least partly because I'm simply less familiar with Bounce whereas I could probably hum every other Sondheim score from start to finish.

So I guess right now my take on it is it's not the crap some unfairly make it to be. It's definetly a worthwhile score but it also, and it pains me to say this, doesn't make me wish that Sondheim and all would revise or find a new way to stage it--I'm sorta happy with them moving on and giving up on it. It just falls... flat I guess. And to be honest it makes me a bit depressed that this might be the last full Sondheim score (Frogs doesn't count for me as it was only a bit new) that we get--especially when the one before was one of my fave Sondheim, or anyone, scores ever--Passion and woulda been a nice note (I again hate to say) to end with.

So opinions? I'd especially love to hear memories of the Prince staging (it's always been kinda interesting to me that in the late 90s/early 00s Prince returned to two of his most successfull collaborators--Lloyd Webber and Sondheim and was unable to make either show work)

E

[NathanLaneStalker]

Posted: 5/17/07 at 4:22am

I love the show. Yes, it is a flawed show. No, it's not Sondheim's best. But it's entertaining (to me anyway).

Some people say (and will say on this thread) that the story is not interesting and that no one cares about the characters. I disagree. I think the story is very interesting. After I purchased this album two years ago, I read up on the Mizner brothers and I have studied them (and I have even done papers on them) so much that I feel like I was there. The show is really not like their life was at all, but hey, it's Broadway, what can ya do?

The show was originally titled "Wise Guys" and "Gold!". They had several workshops with Nathan Lane and Victor Garber in the leading roles and from what I understand, that version of the show was completly different than what ended up on stage and it was actually a lot better.

I thought that the show was enjoyable for a Sondheim/Richard Kind nut like myself. But it did run a little long and it did have it's problems. (The Yukon was NOT in Alaska for one....wtf?)

Anyway, I just like the show. Simple fact is, with Sondheim shows, you either love them or you hate them. This and The Frogs are two that I love that a lot seem to hate.

I just hope they fix the show and get it up on Broadway before Sondheim croaks. But hey, people thought that Ed Kleban would never write another score after A Chorus Line, and years after he died, they came out with A CLASS ACT and he wrote every song to that....sooooo

Posted: 5/17/07 at 4:28am

Thanks--I know the whole Gold backstory, have heard the Garber/Lane workshop, etc etc so you don't need to reiterate it but I appreciate it.

(And ya as a Canadian--what was with the Yukon/Alaska thing? I assumed it was meant to be a joke or something...)

I have to admit I don't like Richard Kind because his character on Spin City made me wanna bash my tv in--it's taken a long timew fo rme to hear his voice and not picture that character--which is *not* his fault. That said, this time I listened I enjoyed his performance.

I think the show was meant to be a Vaudeville take (wasn't that sorta Hal Prince's "concept"?) or gloss on their lives--so far from realistic. I do find the characters interesting and the story as well that's part of my problem--it feels like you have these major emotional issues and then the show written for them is trying to be an old style show--it feels at odds.

The Frogs for me (as written anyway--haven't seen it on stage) works much better--I can make sense of what's trying to be done--and I enjoy it. I enjoy Bounce too--I meant to give that impression that I'm always surprised at how much I like it but unlike nearly every other Sondheim there's nothing there pulling me back to it after the CD is over.

(and Kleban's Class Act was made up of songs he wrote for other projects all combined together--wasn't it? So I don't really get the connection )

I'd much rather see Sondheim make something out of his unmade movie musical, Singing Out Loud, or preferably start on something new than work on Bounce more to be honest...

E

[ray-andallthatjazz86]

Posted: 5/17/07 at 4:54am

I dislike both BOUNCE and WISE GUYS, even if I can appreciate the latter a bit more on recording due to Victor Garber's great performance.
My problem with BOUNCE is that I really don't know what to do with it after I'm through, there are no songs that stay with me, there are no numbers that I feel enthralled by, nothing touches me about it, nothing makes me feel excited or sad or thoughtful or emotional. Yes, there are some songs that are nice to listen to, but I honestly can't list a single one that I remember as a stand-out.
I agree with Eric's comparison with MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG--another Sondheim score that I honestly can't fully enjoy save for a couple of numbers ("Good Thing Going," "Not a Day Goes By," "Old Friend").
I thought I'd like WISE GUYS better but I really haven't listened to it since I got it.

Posted: 5/17/07 at 5:38am

My copy iof Wise Guys seems to have disappeared so I'll have to track down a source--but I think I liked the performances better and that was it.

While I like Bounce more than you--I agree with your reaction. That's what Iw as trying to say--nothing compells me to go back to it--even though when I listen I'm alwasy a bit surprised at enjoying it more than I remembered...

My Merrily comparison (and Saturday Night) stands though both, especially Merrily *do* connect to me on some level. Merrily is actually one of my fave scores (by the time the OBCR gets to Our Time I always feel slightly devestated) but I get what you mean (how's that for vague)

ANd I know it's not fair to compare one show to the other--especially with Sondheim, but Bounce coming after Passion is especially hard I guess (and I know on the Sondheim forum people brought up that at Steve's current age none of the "greats" really made major musicals--but, regardless)

[NathanLaneStalker]

Posted: 5/17/07 at 5:40am

"and Kleban's Class Act was made up of songs he wrote for other projects all combined together--wasn't it? So I don't really get the connection"

For all we know, Sondheim might have a trunk full of songs that he has never used in any other show and after he dies (or before, hopefully) he can roll them all into one show, like they did for Kleban. Sorry, my fault for not explaining my theory.

I like all of the songs in the show, but one does stand out for me. That's "Get Out of My Life". Only becuase I can relate to it. I went through just about the same thing with my actual brother in real life and when I hear it, it reminds me of what happend...so it's a song that stays with me. But that's only on a personal note.

There are songs that stay with me after I listen to the recording and I do go back and listen to a few of them. "Bounce", "Gold!", "Addison's Trip", "Talent", "You" and "Get Out of My Life" are songs I go back and listen to after I am finished with the recording all the way through. Sometimes some of the other songs if I'm in the mood.

You didn't like Richard on Spin City? He was the funniest thing on that show! Him and Barry Bostwick...oh well...people have their own tastes. lol. I can understand how you kept thinking of him in the role. It's kind of the same way with Nathan Lane and Timon in The Lion King for some people. Just look (or listen) past the voice and get into the acting of it. Not the person who's doing it....I THINK that made sense. lol.

Updated On: 5/17/07 at 05:40 AM

[creasemouse]

Posted: 5/17/07 at 7:47am

About this time last year SJS gave a talk at the Queen’s Theatre in London. He said something along the lines of …Chicago was 85% there, Washington was 90% there. Were doing some re writes and rehearsed reading then hopefully a new staged version will appear after that

I too would love to see the Frogs, although I think the changes Nathan Lane made are a bit too didactic. I think that’s why it didn’t go down too well at the Lincoln Centre. The fleshing out of characters is great and I love it how Dionasis is a fraud with everyone else. How ever I can’t help thinking The Frogs is very much the Nathan Lane show. I think John Doyle really needs to get his hands on this one

Posted: 5/17/07 at 8:00am

I know it's contrary for me to say I kinda liek the show but something's missing and then say I wouldn't feel bad if they just let it be and didn't try to work on it anymore--but that's how I feel. I do now remember Sondheim making those comments--I wonder if Prince would still be involved...

I agree that Lane got a bit too hands on with the Frogs. I own a copy of the original SHeveloe (sp?) script for the Yale production and I think it's pretty perfect how it is--though I suppose too short for Broadway--if they could somehow fit most of the new songs and some other new bits into that I think it might world better... hrmm (they'd have to remove some of the pool references I guess but...)

E

[creasemouse]

Posted: 5/17/07 at 8:06am

FROGS:

I would love to read both scripts. Where did you get yours from?

I very much like the sound of the first recording. The second one sounds a bit pop for my tastes. Although im maybe biased due to my love of classical and opera

If John Doyle could somehow combine the first version, with I love to Travel, Dress Big and new version Ariodane (Maybe for her to sing) and restore the original ending then I think we would have a perfect show.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 5/17/07 at 8:59am

The original is available from Dramatists Play Service.

Insofar as BOUNCE, I dunno, Eric: I still have yet to get through an entire listen because somehow it just doesnt sound... I'm not sure what the right word is here, but "coherent" springs to mind. Any other Sondhem show, there's a thread that moves us from one number to another. This one -- where you think a thread would be obvious, given the story -- feels like the score was run through a french fry machine. I once joked to a fellow Sondheim fan that it sounded like every trunk song he'd ever composed and never used, and now I'm starting to suspect that was more true than Sondheim would ever admit.

I really hope he gets one more runaway success before he dies. The revivals of SWEENEY and COMPANY have been less than glittering, and he apparently has nothing new in the works that he feels is stageworthy. It would be a shame to see him go on such an unfinished note.

Posted: 5/17/07 at 6:42pm

My copy of Frogs is an ex library edition from the 70s which is in the same volume with Forum--but I think you can get it individually too...

Sean--I know exactly what you mean. THat;s maybe what I meant by nothing makes me wanna play it again though for me it's far from a pain to listen to. But there's nothign that really compels the score forward...

That said I have to say while showering before work this morning "YOu are the BEst Thing THat Ever Happened to Me" was stuck in my head....

People on here know I'm not the biggest fan of Steven Suskin's views on showtunes but in his playbill.com column he went ON and on abotu what an astonishign score this was, etc etc--I just wish I knew what he was hearing.

Again though I need to reiterate just to make myself feel better :P I do always enjoy it more than I remember...

[LostLeander]

Posted: 5/17/07 at 7:27pm

My feelings about Bounce is that it's a good score. Solid construction, nice songs. It's just not as interesting as Sondheim's other pieces.

There are leitmotifs throughout the piece, developing themes, and all. It does sound quite derivative though. Perhaps it's just Michelle Pawk, but it reminds me of the New Merrily - Pawk's sound, and also the music is quite similar to Gussie's new material.

I like it. It's not one of my favorites, but I go back and listen to it every now and again.

Posted: 5/18/07 at 10:22pm

YES Pawk's first song for some reason sounds like it was lifted from the Schulman production of Merrily straight on.

Lotsa the songs have a similar sound to the new Frogs songs from around the same time too

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 5/19/07 at 2:10pm

Eric, in August of 2003 Wayne and I made a trip to Chicago JUST so I could see BOUNCE (preceded a visit to the AI to see THE painting.)

I had read the reviews and the comments posted to the Sondheim group and was expecting to see something of a work in progress. In many ways I had a more positive experience at BOUNCE than my first visit to MERRILY in October 1981.

The cast was good (though lacking the star power of Nathan Lane and Victor Garber) and Prince staged the piece with his usual flair.

Act One needed some trimming and focus but was not a painful experience. It really came to life in two lengthy sequences; Addison's trip around the world and the wedding bed/New York sequence. The title song was charming (reminding me of Fred Astaire and Jack Buchanan in BAND WAGON) and even with that wisp of a voice Jane Powell was touching in her "Isn't He Something" number.

Act Two was tighter and more focussed and (as you can probably tell from the CD) the score better developed. Gavin Creel was wonderful and the act builds to a crescendo with the amazing Boca Raton sequence.

SO, there were plenty of truly fine moments along the way but also a number of areas where more work was needed. It was not a disaster at all, but not ready for Broadway. The biggest problem is that the authors failed to bring us into the loop and explain WHY they needed to tell this story. Unlike virtually every other Sondheim musical, this one still did not have a clear cut reason for being. If they can solve that, there is a great deal in BOUNCE that is worth salvaging.

That said, I would have preferred that Sondheim write 2-3 other shows in the years he has expended on BOUNCE.

Posted: 5/19/07 at 7:35pm

Interesting that your live experiences basically correspond to my feelings of the show on CD. The sequences you mention are definetly the highlights on CD--and that's exactly the problem--so unusual for Sondheim, you do never get a sense of WHY this story is being told

[BustopherPhantom]

Posted: 12/15/07 at 7:21pm

There are parts of BOUNCE's score that I absolutely love: Gold!, Addison's City, Get Out of My Life, and (my favorite on the CD) Boca Raton.

And then there are parts that are completely lackluster and bland, like What's Your Rush, The Best Thing That Ever Has Happened to Me, and The Game (among others).

My opinion is that a great show actually does lie in this material, and that is the show that focuses on the relationship between Addison and Wilson. The fact that Wilson is basically rotten and Addison doesn't have it in him to stand up to Wilson (and also is in love with him) could be the stuff of extremely attractive drama if Sondheim and Weidman hadn't buried it underneath a whole lot of fat.

Unfortunately, I don't think the final revisions on the show are going to make the show all it can be. Sondheim and Weidman seem to have the mistaken impression that the show is best as a full-blown musical comedy, and, as said above, most of the songs seem to be locked inside a "musical comedy" quotation mark. Unless Sondheim plans to overhaul his entire score (which ain't happening at his age), the show will never be great; it can still be very good, though.

[FranklinShepard-Inc.]

Posted: 12/15/07 at 7:46pm

I love most of the score for its melodies and thoughtfulness. But I did find the show a little long and lacking a bit of drive, since the characters seemed to not only repeatedly "bounce" as they constantly said but also they seemed to know from the very beginning that all their bouncing was pointless. It's that typical "never look back" tenet we get in almost all Sondheim shows and yet, this time it's a self destructing tenet. And maybe that's what the main problem of the show is, it's all about that not looking back, moving forward, and all for its own sake. There is no further point beyond it. So as a matter of fact, if that is the conclusion, then the vaudevillian approach is wisely chosen to get the distanced view, since it's not really about the characters but rather about that tenet.

[HorseTears]

Posted: 12/15/07 at 8:12pm

I'm afraid that I find this score to be a monumental disappointment. I truly hope that it isn't the last work that he leave us.

If you visit npr.org, you can hear a small snippet of Nathan Lane singing an absolutely beautiful song called 'An Architect Sketching a Design'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that this song was cut from Wise Guys. It's a shame because it is achingly lovely and far superior to anything I heard on the Bounce OCR. It was recorded at a Library of Congress concert in celebration of Sondheim's birthday back in 2000.

Sondheim's Library of Congress Birthday Concert - (NPR) Updated On: 12/15/07 at 08:12 PM

[follies85]

Posted: 12/15/07 at 11:02pm

After listening to the snippet of "An Architect Sketching a Design," I realized that this song must be the bonus track retitled "A Little House for Mama" on the Bounce OCR. The song is poignantly sung by Richard Kind and is indeed one of my favorites which was unfortunately cut from the show. Although I didn't see the show on stage , the Bounce OCR has proved to be one of my favorite Sondheim recordings as of late. The themes: human resilience, self discovery and expansion, sibling rivalry and acceptance are very relevant and are recurrent in many of Sondheim's other works. Besides the use of period styles, I feel that I especially like the score for its vitality. I do hope that when the show premieres in New York more emphasis will be placed on the relationship between the two brothers and their characters will be brought more out into the light.

[Glebb]

Posted: 12/15/07 at 11:34pm

I saw Sweeney three times on Broadway, Pacific Overtures Off Broadway, Chicago Shakespeare and Studio 54. I saw Follies in London and Roundabout. I saw Bounce at The Goodman and just didn't like it. There were no songs in Act I that I liked and there was a song at the beginning of Act II on a train (I think) that I liked and then it ended badly. When the song started I thought OK, here we go, the show is going to get good. And then the song ended with a line something like 'he can kiss my ass." It was so strange. The "You are the best thing that ever happened to me" line played over and over and I didn't think it was up to Sondheim's good stuff. The rest of the show bored me as much as Act I. I love Sondheim so I would have been thrilled to like it. I just didn't.