BEST Musicals that DIDN'T win BEST MUSICAL- Page 4

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 5:54pm

Margo---Yeah, I know all about that lighting board! We used it in a production of HAIR that I was in, way back in '84. It was the same one developed for Dreamgirls and it cost a few nickels, to be sure. It also failed on us in dress rehearsal and had to be reprogrammed from scratch for a continuous 36 hours prior to opening. Regardless, I wouldn't exactly classify that as influencing a genre, any more than saying that the first show to use body mics or laser beams did.

Dreamgirls was a damn fine production though, no arguments there.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 5:58pm

I was thinking that I may, in fact, appreciate NINE more when I approach the big 4-0 (still nine years away).

Also, it may have to do with the fact the Leveaux's production is the only one I've ever seen. I enjoyed it a great deal, but there were a few staging blunders that were really rudimentary and took away from complete enjoyment.

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:04pm

robbiej -- I wish you'd seen the original Tune production. Yeah, and maybe as you close in on riding the Big 4-0, you might feel these sentiments more closely. Maybe not. I do know that as I've grown older and traveled to Venice and all over Italy in fact, I have learned to appreciate NINE even more, particularly the score for some strange reason. The music haunts me now, more than it did when the show first came out.

But I can also tell you that as I've gotten older and further away from "youth," I haven't appreciated DREAMGIRLS any less! It's still a brilliant show.

EDIT: Lordy, I sound like an old codger. I'm Guido's age NOW for God's sake, not 100! Guess I'm just an "old soul" when it comes down to it.

Updated On: 11/9/05 at 06:04 PM

[jv92]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:10pm

The Lion King, like so many WRITERS of musical theater say (Fred Ebb, Sondheim, etc.) it is like a show you would see at Radio City.
Ragtime, although it did have some flaws was more deserving. I also think it should have won for one of its leads, as good as Alan Cummings and Natasha Richardson were.
Wicked vs. Avenue Q- well, will someone just forget it. We all know who should have won. We all know Avenue Q is just a gimmick, although about 5 out of its 18 or so songs are good. Wicked, although it has as many, if more flaws than Ragtime, it was something Broadway needed, a solid, dramatic and comic, tuneful, star powered hit.
As for this years debacle. Spamalot will hopefully shutter within a year or two once it starts going downhill and the craze ends.
I personally would have given the prize to The Light in the Piazza for being daring, corageous and exiting. However, in the other debated category of score, I would have given the trophy to David Yazbek. Yes, Adam Guettel's score was incredible, but his lyrics...well, they could have been better (with the exception of some of Magaret's songs). Remember, best score is for superior music AND lyrics and Mr. Yazbek gave us not only good music, but laugh out loud and very good lyrics. I think the Tony awards should divide the category into two (Music and Lyrics) if one show has great music and another, superior lyrics.
Just my two cents.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:10pm

I am a Wicked fan. I admit, it's a highly entertaining show and the premise is really interesting.

But, the bottomline is, Avenue Q was the more solid show that year. Wicked has MAJOR holes and flaws in both the book and score. It got it's recognition by Idina taking the Tony for Lead Actress, but it definitely did not deserve to win the Best Musical award.

[robbiej]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:15pm

If I didn't have to go see Lea 'Baby Mama' Solanga right now, I'd go into a whole thing why I liked LK more than RAGTIME. But Baby Mama calls!!!

Please...can't you see that's all I live for?

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:25pm

jv92---All I can say about Ragtime vs. Lion King is that I saw Ragtime 4 times in L.A. and once on Broadway prior to the Tonys that year. It was a monumental show IMO. Interesting to note, however, that the Los Angeles production was BETTER than the Broadway production for many reasons... When I saw Lion King, I was blown out of my chair at the New Amsterdam. Granted, I had house seats, and it couldn't have been a more optimum way to see this show... but I remember sitting stunned in my seat during the intermission. I had NEVER SEEN imagination like that on Broadway, before or since. It just doesn't show up in commercial theatre, because it's too risky. I was overwhelmed emotionally, and began to choke up. I couldn't talk to anyone until well after the performance had ended. I wasn't expecting that, and it is something I will never forget.

Since Tony voters are judging the production just as much as the writing (lighting, acting, music etc.), and the "emotional impact," I can understand why they chose Lion King. I left the theatre KNOWING it was going to win the Best Musical award, and I had walked in thinking Ragtime was going to sweep all the awards that year. The Broadway production of RAGTIME just wasn't nearly as emotionally impacting as the Los Angeles production. If the L.A. group had gone head to head with the OBC of Lion King, I think we might have had a different winner.

Consequently, I saw the tour of Lion King again when it hit Los Angeles... and it was a pale recreation of what I'd seen on Broadway. Had the L.A production of Lion King gone against the OBC of Ragtime, we would have had a different winner as well.

But "on paper" (book & score), there is no comparison. Ragtime wins, hands down.

Updated On: 11/7/05 at 06:25 PM

[Smaxie]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:27pm

Even more than its technical stagecraft, which was so astounding at the time, and Bennett's cinematic, fluid staging, DREAMGIRLS deserves some major points for some staggering musical writing. Reading this thread, I'm still not certain that the work of Henry Krieger and Tom Eyen is fully appreciated or even understood.

Consider the "Cadillac Car" sequence: Curtis begins the song as a recitative statement about black social status. It then becomes a defiant company number as the performers are traveling around the country. We then watch as C.C. writes a song called "Cadlillac Car". We watch the song get recorded by Jimmy Early and the Dreamettes, and then watch it rise up the charts, only to be overtaken by a white-bread version performed by a Pat Boone-like singer.

All that, accomplished in one number.

Or consider how the song "Dreamgirls" is musically transformed from Motor City pop, to Vegas glitz to variety show gloss, subtly encapsulating a decade of American popular music tastes, in subversive, but satisfying fashion.

Or the incredible "One Night Only" record wars sequence, which is a musical tug-o-war over the song in question, and as soul fights disco in the two different versions we hear, Effie is pouring everything she has into her version, while Deena, Lorell and Michele are distractedly singing their thoughts in between choruses of their soulless rendition.

I'd say Dreamgirls was majorly influential, but unfortunately very few shows since have matched or even attempted what Krieger and Eyen achieved.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:28pm

Best12 --

The bugs in that light board are legendary. I think the only one that actually worked was the one at the Imperial and that was because the engineer who made it was on call and at the theatre constantly.

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:41pm

Ha! Margo--Too funny. I wish I could tell our poor lighting designer about that NOW. It's rare to watch a grown man cry in a situation like that. Poor damn fellow. I felt so bad for him... for us. We went into overtime on an extra 11 hour rehearsal so they could light us all over again.

All I remember hearing was that he'd pushed just one button to run a cue-to-cue after our "final" dress rehearsal... and the entire pre-programming for the show was erased in one instant.

We had many hundreds of light cues in our psychedelic production.

EDIT: And Smaxie, I am in no way "poo-pooing" Dreamgirls. I too was blown away by it.

Updated On: 11/7/05 at 06:41 PM

[babykitty_00]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:50pm

yeah I have to agree with all the wicked votes here....Wicked totally got robbed....seriously, freakin puppets? go to sesame street live if you wanna see that.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 6:58pm

Erm.... well, I'll admit that I haven't seen Avenue Q, and that I really love Wicked.... but it's quite possible that Q is a better overall show. The concept of Avenue Q is really innovative (your comment about puppets is just sort of dumb, since the concept is satire), and Wicked is amazing but flawed. I think that it's fantastic that Idina won for Best Actress, because she was phenominal. But really, Wicked didn't NEED to win Best Musical, it already had mass appeal, as evidenced by its huge popularity today. I would almost prefer to see the award go to a show that's otherwise going to go sort of under-the-radar.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:05pm

I am willing to bet that babykitty has never bothered to see Avenue Q....or even knows anything about it.

[babykitty_00]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:12pm

"But really, Wicked didn't NEED to win Best Musical, it already had mass appeal, as evidenced by its huge popularity today."

is that why they give out tony's? for popularity and mass appeal? gee I thought they gave them out for achievement, my bad.

[colleen_lee]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:14pm

Yes they do, and though Wicked had the fancier pyrotechnics, it had a weak book, a flawed score and was by no means an original or innovative idea.

Again, I like the show, but it definitely did not have the goods to be Best Musical.

[best12bars]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:18pm

Q is a show that EVERYONE I know who lives in New York City loves and says is the best, by far.

Personally, I too think Wicked is better, but not for the reasons you probably think. Wicked is ultimately better because of the strong subject matter and the way it resonates to universal audiences, myself being "one of those." Bells went off in my head when I first saw this show (not because I'm "touched" either!). It has faults, but ultimately succeeds on a much grander level than Q, which pound-for-pound is a "smarter" show but limiting in its overall appeal, and lacking in any lasting resonance.

If you are not interested in moving to a big city and making a life for yourself there, understanding how city life works and how you might fit into it (via Sesame Street -style puppets), you're going to be bored with Q very quickly. Some nice laughs and clever scenarios and songs... but that's about it. Whereas, even if you're not "into Oz," witches or young underdog girls starting out in college, or belting green divas, Wicked's path of questioning and re-thinking who is good and who is evil, and our society's perception of good and evil deeds, connects to many people regardless of their goals, geographic locations, sexes or ages. I was deeply affected by Wicked when I saw it. Faults and all, it tells a much more compelling story.

That's why it's going to run for a long, long time. I would have voted for Wicked as well for the Tony. There's more to theatre than good crafting. There is basic story-telling and strength in subject matter and overall impact. But if I still was living in NYC, I might have felt differently... who knows?

The Tony voters obviously did.

Updated On: 11/7/05 at 07:18 PM

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:20pm

I still would have voted for CAROLINE over either -- not that anyone asked me.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:21pm

I think that you misunderstood my meaning, babykitty_00. I don't think that they should give the Best Musical award to a weaker musical just to promote it, but nor do I think that mass appeal makes a show Best Musical. My point was mainly that Wicked didn't win it and it's not suffering as a consequence... basically, that it isn't the end of the world that it wasn't Best Musical that year. You're free to disagree, though.

[billygoatgirl300]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:26pm

2002: Urinetown
2005: The Light in the Pizzia

I also wonder why alot of people here think that Chicago should have won over A Chorus Line.

As a side note I thought Donna Murphy should have won the Tony for Wonderful Town. She was great at the show I saw her at and I thought she was robbed.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 7:28pm

Mack & Mabel

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 9:53pm

West Side Story
The Light in the Piazza

~Steven

[rose&lark]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 9:57pm

To echo all the others that've mentioned this one, RAGTIME. Such a stunning piece of theatre that was under-appreciated at the 1998 Tonys (Despite Audra winning, of course.)

[BrendanStryker]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 9:57pm

RAGTIME

[Urban]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 11:39pm

My obession with Ragtime is legendary, so do I need to even comment on that subject?

I know most have already been mentioned, but I will mention them again, this is of course just my subjective opinion:

West Side Story
Gypsy
Oliver!
Sweet Charity
Follies
Dreamgirls
Sunday in the Park with George
Parade
The Wild Party
Urinetown
Caroline or Change
Light in the Piazza

I didn't mention it in the list, but 1991 deserves its own seperate category.

And I know I proberly am the only person in the world who thinks it, but I think "Bring in 'da Noise/Bring in 'da Funk" should've won over "RENT".

[Jamie Hat]

Posted: 11/7/05 at 11:48pm

PARADE
RAGTIME
and CAROLINE should have won anyways.