Carousel - a discussion

robbiej Profile Photo
robbiej
#0Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:28pm

I was in Provincetown recently, visiting my best friend who is performing there. The seaside setting and the appearances of clam beds during low tide made us think of the glorious musical CAROUSEL.

We began discussing what many consider to be the most controversial moment in the piece: when Louise asks Julie Jordan if it's possible to be hit by someone and have it feel like a kiss. Julie answers affirmatively. There are some that feel this is almost a justification for spousal abuse...others, misogynistic. My friend and I couldn't help but feel that, in many ways, it's the most honest moment of the show. Truth isn't always pretty. It's the reason I love the show so much (that, and the glorious score).

I'm interested in other opinions on this topic. Please feel free to use other morally ambiguous moments in musicals to further the discussion along.


"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

Bluemoon
#1re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:38pm

True. Two recent productions I have seen have removed this dialogue as well as "softened" the relationship between Billy and Julie. In second guessing the modern audiences' sensibilties, these edits take the edge right out of the book.

Another problematic musical moment: the "Rape" song in Fantasticks. I believe they've altered the wording now.

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kissmycookie
#2re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:40pm

I see it less as a justification. More as an example that love can twist certain truths. Or even how one views expressions of love. Billy can only express love through violence because that is all he has known. And Julie appears to have accepted that. Has anyone read Molnar's Liliom to see if theres more to the book than we see onstage?

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Michael Bennett
#3re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:41pm

Anyone who doubts the ability of the Louise/Julie exchange to be moving and powerful should watch Joanna Riding deliver the lines on the "Hey Mr. Producer" special.

Her Julie Jordan at the RNT is still one of the greatest musical theatre performances I've ever seen.

And I think they altered the lyrics for the "Rape" song but kept it for The Fantasticks Off Broadway. But they set it up with dialogue making it very clear that it's a "literary" definition.

But I guess there is a new song available if you are at an ultra PC theatre.

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DottieD'Luscia
#4re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:46pm

Not only spousal abuse, but Billy's suicide. I was in a production of this show and the director had Billy being shot by one of the policemen.

Carousel is one of my favorite shows and it was very difficult to keep my composure during the final scene in both rehearsal and actual performances.


Hey Dottie! Did your colleagues enjoy the cake even though your cat decided to sit on it? ~GuyfromGermany

Bluemoon
#5re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:47pm

MTI is currently listing the rape song as "Abduction". No lyrics listed, though.

Gothampc
#6re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:47pm

I don't think that it's any more controversial than Billy's suicide.

But I've often wondered the same thing about "The Honeymooners". Ralph is always threatening to belt Alice. Did that make it ok?



If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.

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robbiej
#7re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:52pm

Odd turn this is taking with The Honeymooners, but why not. I think because Alice is NEVER frightened and it's funny, the audience knows that it would never happen.


"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

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SueleenGay
#8re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:55pm

Like many R&H shows the score soars above the book. I really respect them for trying daring and controversial themes in a time when most people did not want to see them, the execution is often clumsy and melodramatic. So I adore the score, but have to pass on a full production.

But I think in recent years, Mimi coming back from the dead is right up there with the most offensive things to make it into a serious musical.


PEACE.

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shameless
#9re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:56pm

I agree that the slap is one of the most honest moments of the show and as lame as this sounds, that it was an act of love, Billy's version of love. Not that it makes it right. If a friend told you her boyfriend hit her because he loves her so much, you'd tell her she was lying to herself or a fool.

But, I don't think the scene in any way justifies abuse either. Billy isn't portrayed as a hero, it's very clear that he has issues.

The first other show that came to mind was Oliver. “As Long as He Needs Me" makes me crazy.


Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day; begin it well and serenely and with too high a spirit to be enbered with your old nonsense. ~ Emerson

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robbiej
#10re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 2:57pm

AGREED!

I was pretty moved at the end of RENT...but I would have been devastated had the bitch remained dead.


"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

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DottieD'Luscia
#11re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:01pm

I'm still haunted by (and not in a good way), "her fever's breaking..."


Hey Dottie! Did your colleagues enjoy the cake even though your cat decided to sit on it? ~GuyfromGermany

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best12bars
#12re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:02pm

Rodgers & Hammerstein knew very well that Julie's dialogue in this scene was controversial. Aside from it being faithful to the original play "Liliom," it would get people angry and get them talking. They wanted it, and invited it in an era when spousal abuse was often covered up, lied about or glossed over. They put it right in the middle of a popular musical for all to see (and hear).

As much as some people like to lable their shows as "corny" or "fluff" they never backed down on controversy. "South Pacific" has one of the best songs ever written (to this day) about racism and tolerance: "You've Got To Be Carefully Taught." They were given advice by many to cut that song out of town, but they refused (saying if you cut that song, you kill the heart of the show---which is true). And while they didn't initally set out to create openly romantic tension between the lead characters in "The King & I," when it was developing naturally during their rehearsal process, it was incouraged. Again, controversy. They were amazing talents and true visionaries. I'm glad people are still discussing their characters and dramatic themes. They would have loved that!


"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22

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SueleenGay
#13re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:02pm

I heard they are changing the end of the movie to have Mimi stay dead and have ANGEL come back to life. Now THAT would make sense. Has anyone heard anything about the Rent movie? When it comes out? Who is in it?


PEACE.

robbiej Profile Photo
robbiej
#14re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:04pm

Dottie,

I believe the MOOOOOOOOO back to life was the most egregious mistake.


"I'm so looking forward to a time when all the Reagan Democrats are dead."

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DottieD'Luscia
#15re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:08pm

Robbie, I must have blocked that out (and for good reason)!!!


Hey Dottie! Did your colleagues enjoy the cake even though your cat decided to sit on it? ~GuyfromGermany

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shameless
#16re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:14pm

I just assumed that Mimi had lost consciousness and they only thought she had died.

I took my cousin to see it, for the first time, a few months ago and Mimi coming back to life was her only complaint.


Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day; begin it well and serenely and with too high a spirit to be enbered with your old nonsense. ~ Emerson

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SueleenGay
#17re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:22pm

Well, since Mimi DIES in La Boheme, I assumed she would die at the end of RENT. So I really didn't think she had just passed out.


PEACE.

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jasonf
#18re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:27pm

For the Fantastiks, I think they actually wrote a whole other song in place of the Rape song -- and it's in the movie...

As for Carousel -- I'm SHOCKED that modern productions would get rid of that scene - even the movie, and they were ultra-sensitive in those times -- includes the scene. Don't tell me conservatives are running our theaters now....


Hi, Shirley Temple Pudding.

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shameless
#19re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:35pm

I guess I was hoping, after she woke up, that she had just passed out.

Anyway, back to Carousel ...


Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day; begin it well and serenely and with too high a spirit to be enbered with your old nonsense. ~ Emerson

MojaniD
#20re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 3:38pm

The movie version of Carousel did not work for me. I prefer the stage version better. I liked the production LCT did about 10 years ago. Updated On: 7/27/05 at 03:38 PM

The Grovers Corners Yenta
#21re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 6:27pm

I think the stage production of Carousel was way ahead of its time. To think that peoplewere actually going to deal with the topics of suicide and physical abuse at that time were basically unheard of. Musicals were all boy meets girl and they fall in love. The film however, made it into a fluff piece and it lost it's meaning. As a survivot of physical abuse and suicide attempts......I say that this should never be taken lightly.


"Friends are the people you chose as family."....Me.

roquat
#22re: Carousel - a discussion
Posted: 7/27/05 at 7:11pm

There is a new song available for "The Fantasticks" called "Abductions." The authors took the perky underscoring from the "Rape Ballet" and put lyrics to it (sample)

Abductions, abductions
Theatrical abductions
Complete with maidens in distress
And fabulous productions!

There is also a slightly altered version of the original song (which can be heard on the cast album of the Japanese tour). Instead of saying, "You can get the rape emphatic/You can get the rape polite", the new lyric goes, "An abduction that's emphatic/An abduction that's polite" etc., etc.) It's up to each production which alternative to take.

As for "Carousel", I abhor the line in question and every production I've seen cuts it. I think it makes Julie out to be both dense and masochistic.


I ask in all honesty/What would life be?/Without a song and a dance, what are we?/So I say "Thank you for the music/For giving it to me."