Bush Vs Kerry

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NoDayButToday2
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Bush Vs Kerry#0
Posted: 9/19/04 at 12:55pm
Okay. The likelyhood that we can have a humane conversation about something is rather low, but I'll give it a shot...

What do you find important in a president? Who are you voting for and why? What are some changes you are hoping for? Don't turn this into a 'my candidate is better' argument... I would just like to confirm the fact that there are some smart opinionated people left on the boards. Please dont prove me wrong...
LadyGuenevere
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#1
Posted: 9/19/04 at 1:17pm
Ha. Ha. Civilized discussion, no cheap shots. I'll pay $20 to you if it doesn't happen on this thread.

Actually, I can post my form letter here. Hm.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#2
Posted: 9/19/04 at 3:20pm
It is important to me that the President have a sense of God. Bush says that he prays and I believe it. I vote for Bush because he states his beliefs and stands by them.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#3
Posted: 9/19/04 at 4:35pm
I believe in John Kerry. His position on the rights of a woman to choose what to do with her body, his position on the war in Iraq, his position on economic and social issues are the same as mine. I believe he wants what's best for most Americans and will be able to work with congress to make sure both sides are happy.

Then there is GW. First and foremost he has basically declared war on gays and lesbians and as far as I'm concerned I'll fight back. If he wins, we can kiss any gains that have happened in the last 10 years. His court appointments will make sure of that.
He ran in 2000 as a compassionate conservative, well, he has no compassion.
He ran as a uniter not a divider, and managed to divide the country more that it ever has been.
He has botched our economy - jobs have been lost, and those that have been created , pay less.
Before 9/11 he pissed off many of our allies by backing out of or breaking various treaties. After 9/11 he managed to take the compassion of our allies and turned it to hate by attacking Iraq. Going to war in Iraq (instead of going after Al Qeada), before allowing various other and peaceable solutions to work, will probably be one of the biggest blunders of the last two centuries. It hasn't made us safer (in fact , I think it has done the oppisite). Economically it has been disastrous for us, imagine what the money could have been used for.

I also have a problem having a president, who has prided himself most of his life on not reading, not traveling and not listening to any points of view except his own.
I especially question a man who does indeed state his point of view and stands by them, even when it has been proven that he is wrong. I want a president who learns, grows and has the capacity to change their mind when proven that he is mistaken.
I would like a smart, compassionate president, who knows what's going on outside our country, who reads all points of views, who will listen to and work with all Americans and be able to comprimise. I believe Kerry is such a person. GW has shown that he is not.
Now living in DC. I really have to change my name on the board.
Updated On: 9/19/04 at 04:35 PM
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#4
Posted: 9/19/04 at 9:15pm
first of all im 13 so i cant vote but if i could....

i would never saie "i hate bush" b/c i see him as the mother of our contree and i dont bad talk my mother i dont know about you but if i had to choes my "mother" i dont think i would choues him mainly b/c of irak but on the other hand is it a good idea to change presidents in the middle of a wor he mite as well finish it
Updated On: 9/19/04 at 09:15 PM
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#5
Posted: 9/19/04 at 9:18pm
Liam Darlin', I am BEGGING you to go buy yourself a dictionary. I don't want to be mean, but almost every word you write is constantly spelled wrong and it's like reading a code to decipher your postings.
"Noah, someday we'll talk again. But there's things we'll never say. That sorrow deep inside you. It inside me, too. And it never go away. You be okay. You'll learn how to lose things..."
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#6
Posted: 9/19/04 at 9:22pm
Goth, I also believe that Bush prays. And there also isn't a doubt in my mind that those prayers have not led him to make good decisions.

Seriously, are you going to let this man run our country into the ground just because he's more religious (or at least uses more religious rhetoric) than his opponent?

The good thing about religion in a President is that it should instill good values in him. When I see Bush's values- persecuting homosexuals, starting unecessary wars, killing our planet, bullying our allies, and deceiving American citizens left and right- I think his religion hasn't really been of much use. His values, as they apply to his duties as President, stink.

Bush states his opinions and stands by them. But if those opinions are bad for our country, what use is his firm stance?
Updated On: 9/19/04 at 09:22 PM
LadyGuenevere
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#7
Posted: 9/19/04 at 9:31pm
*What do you find important in a president?

Unwavering dedication to their country. That should answer the next question.

*Who are you voting for and why?

George W. Bush. Four more years!

*What are some changes you are hoping for?

I hope that GW Bush, if he has another term, will concentrate more on Afghanistan and finding Osama Bin Laden. I would also like to see him work more on the schools of our country, try to improve the quality. Hopefully Iraq will be under control soon so Bush can focus a bit more on the economy and domestic policies.

*Why am I not voting for John Kerry?

John Kerry has been for and against everything. Yes, I know, the flip-flopper argument AGAIN. Sorry, guys. But it's true.

Politicians are allowed to change opinions, in fact, it's great if candidates show that they are not rigid in their beliefs, and that they are willing to understand other people!

But John Kerry. Oh boy, John Kerry. This boy has really done more changing than I would think that a politician can do. And that's the problem- I really have NO idea what he will actually get done if he is elected. At least we know that he wouldn't have lied, considering that he is for and against everything. But I'm scared if the country is in his hands.

Do I believe that the world will just be chaotic and dangerous under his control? No. (Okay, maybe a TINY bit.) But I don't think that he can be running a country that is involved in a war, and I don't like his plans for rebuilding Iraq with the UN help, and wooing more people to join our side (who really don't want to be there in the first place). Ha. If they don't like us, let's leave it that way. We tried convincing them- what else can you do next.

Marc is right, unfortunately this nation is polarized. GW Bush's fault? I think not. I think that this War on Iraq really had people in the 'war mongering/peace loving' mode again, and political debates turned ugly as our world was on the brink of war.

This election will be horrible, no matter what the outcome. I am not choosing to vote Democrat (even though I do agree with gay civil unions) because the Democratic party today is an absolute MESS. A stream of political correctness, such HATRED for George W. Bush, classless cheap shots, the list goes on.

Conservatives are not perfect, but my beliefs lie there, and I am absolutely disgusted with how some liberals have acted towards me, simply because I'm a Republican. If I don't agree with their views, I am a racist bigot.

So much for tolerance.

I don't blame it on the president. I blame it on the fact that war, for either side, isn't very pretty. And that's definitely showing now.
Updated On: 9/19/04 at 09:31 PM
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#9
Posted: 9/19/04 at 9:38pm
That's damn reasonable, Guen. I also think the Dems are a mess- but I prefer that to the Republicans, who are very effective at making a mess. I'll take Mr. Dither rather than the guy who's wasted hundreds of American lives, pursued wrongheaded economic policies, and spread a message that's filled with an awful lot of hate for a so-called "compassionate conservative." Bush strikes me as being about as compassionate as a rabid weasel.
Updated On: 9/19/04 at 09:38 PM
LadyGuenevere
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#10
Posted: 9/19/04 at 9:42pm
See, if I believed in 'compassionate conservatism', I'd argue with you.

But I don't.

What hate-filled message is Bush spreading?

And I do not believe that ANY of those lives are 'wasted.' This wasn't in vain. Was the removal of Sadaam not enough for you? Was the fact that the weapon making facilities stopped not enough for you?

This isn't in vain.

And yes, you heard it, that party is a mess. Their preaching of tolerance is just as bad as our 'compassionate conservatism.'
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#11
Posted: 9/19/04 at 10:00pm
What hate-filled message? Ask any homosexual about that.

I brought the "compassionate conservatism" bit to support my point that the guy is methodically deceiving people. Way too many people still think that Sadaam Hussein was associated with al-Qaeda and the 9/11 attacks.

What the hell is wrong with preaching tolerance?

And we can't go around trying to rebuild every misrun country. There's just too much of that in the world. We were already in the middle of a war- and important war- in Afghanistan. Not only was that war mismanaged, but he diverted tons of resources, both human and material, from there to Iraq. And I still argue that it was unecessary. Iraq was not going to attack us, and they didn't have nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons of mass destruction.

I know as well as the next American (and probably better) just what an asshole Saddam Hussein is. Most of my early childhood memories involve bomb sirens and learning how to put on a gas mask. Because that SOB decided to attack Israel to try to get Gulf War I off-course. But the fact remains, Iraq hadn't attacked the U.S. in any way since 1993 (this is according to the State Department).

We're doing something important in Afghanistan- that country was a big fat terrorist training ground, and it produced people who actually hit our country. Iraq, on the other hand, is a wrongheaded war. I'm not a pacifist. I'm an Israeli. I know what terrorism means. And Iraq wasn't responsible for any anti-American terrorism. They were a miserable country, but so are places like Sudan. What can you do?
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#12
Posted: 9/19/04 at 10:03pm
Oh, if only life -- the world -- civilization -- everything -- was as easy as getting behind someone who "..never changes his mind!" As if never waivering was alone the single most important aspect of "character" or "leadership." We raise our children -- I know, I'm a parent -- to own their strengths and their weaknesses. To abandon strategies when they don't work. Critically, to be painstakingly honest -- to admit mistakes. Only in doing so can anyone grow, learn, expan--deepen. To never change, never waiver, never "flip-flop" is ultimately an empty concept, one that flies in the face of everything one instructs a human child from infancy on. To live on this planet is to evolve, to face challenges with flexibility. Anyone on a genuine spiritual path -- who prays to his or her God -- knows that owning human weakness means admitting error. To stand behind a leader whose strength is built on rigiditiy and a personal ...what? ... infaliblity? leads us where? WHERE?! I fear for a society - and world -- that worships such a mindset.
"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#13
Posted: 9/19/04 at 10:09pm
Plum, there is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching tolerance.

But do they also teach people to call people bigots and racists, *simply* because they do not agree with your ideals? Do you NOT see the hypocrisy there? Or is it just me? Or are people just refusing to see it?

I know that people feel deeply for their beliefs, homosexuals want to be married, minorities want a better chance to get a job. And if they meet someone who politely opposes it, they're immediately a 'fag-hater', 'right wing nut', 'religious maniac', 'racist bigot', and more names that I just won't mention here. Do you not see the double standard with the Democrats' ideal of policy?

So many liberals think that we can get into the minds of terrorists and maybe that will help us win the war.

If you can get into the minds of terrorists, damn right you can get into the mind of a person who does not believe in gay marriage, affirmative action, or complete separation of Church and state.

I also do believe that Bush should be more involved in Afghanistan, I wrote it in my original post. There ya go, I Believe that it was a mistake that we're somewhat ignoring it.

What do you think that Sadaam's weapons facilities were for? Just 'in case?' For 'defense purposes?' Give me a break. If he wasn't going to use them on outer countries, he was going to use them on his own people. Iraq isn't just a 'misrun country.'
Plum
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#14
Posted: 9/19/04 at 10:14pm
What weapons facilities? He was manufacturing biological agents on a scale for assassinations, not "mass destruction."

By the way, I hate that whole "mass destruction" misnomer because it confuses biological and chemical weapons, which just kill people, with more traditional indendiary weapons that actually blow things up. Two different things, people.

Anyway, Guen, don't you get it? We can't rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time without compromising one or the other. Now they're both being compromised, but Afghanistan especially so. When was the last time that country made the front page? When Pat Tillman was killed?

And I don't accuse everyone who disagrees with me of being a bigot. I accuse bigots of being bigots. People who say gays are living "wasteful lifestyles" and liken their marriages to bestiality are bigots, plain and simple. And I disagree with bigotry.

You can't get so open-minded your brain falls out. Tolerance doesn't mean tolerating intolerance. If that makes any sense. :P
Updated On: 9/19/04 at 10:14 PM
LadyGuenevere
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#15
Posted: 9/19/04 at 10:21pm
"What weapons facilities? He was manufacturing biological agents on a scale for assassinations, not "mass destruction." "

Which obviously, is much nicer than weapons of mass destruction.

Did you want to find a whole whopping facility and find that weapons were missing? I hope not! I know that liberals are upset that we did not find any weapons of mass destruction, and you know what? They have a right to be upset.

But I would be more satisfied with finding the capablility (they had it) and the material (they had it) and everything that supports the fact that they were ready to build a weapon of mass destruction- but that they weren't able to accomplish it. Do you want it on your front lawn before it's time to attack? God knows what would have happened in the war if they had a stockpile of those lovely things.

"You can't get so open-minded your brain falls out. Tolerance doesn't mean tolerating intolerance. If that makes any sense. "

It makes sense, sadly. The hypocrisy of liberal tolerance kills me. It really does.

I can say that I'm tolerant for the most part, but I don't brag about it. And I try to understand why other people think a certain way, and respect their opinion. Can't say that it has been done for me lately.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#16
Posted: 9/19/04 at 10:30pm
It goes both way, Guen. Hang out on a theater board and you'll get crap. If I go to a conservative area I get crap and dirty looks because I have olive skin.

But I reserve the right to be prejudiced against bigots. And all the moderates in the Republican Party who aren't speaking out against this hate campaign are making me sick.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#17
Posted: 9/19/04 at 11:30pm
I believe that anyone who votes against gay marriage is a bigot just as I believe that anyone who votes against interracial marriage is a bigot. I have absolutely no shame in that. And, I know I am right because my pov allows all to be treated equal based on race or sexual orientation/gender whereas voting against either discriminates. And one who discriminates against people is a bigot. I'm sorry if they don't like being called a bigot, but a spade is a spade. And, I will not accept people hiding behind their Bibles or other religious texts. We do not live in a theocracy. We live in a democracy. We all should have the right to our freedom of religion--and even freedom from religion.

And, I am just not going to say anything further as this discussion is rather moot. No one is going to change their minds. Vote how you please.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#18
Posted: 9/20/04 at 9:48am
Actually we do not live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic.

The United States was founded upon the idea of "In God We Trust". With this in mind, we built the country on a Biblical foundation. People will try to argue separation of church and state, but it's fact that in the early days they held church services in the Capitol rotunda. Does that sound like separation of church and state?

George Bush has stated that he believes in the Bible and that his decisions are based on its teaching. If he is against gay marriage, it is because the Bible is against gay marriage. Bush sticks by his beliefs.

As for the war in Iraq, that is also prophesied in the Bible. It's there for anyone who wants to read it. In 1999, Jewish rabbis were saying that we were entering a time of judgement of the nations and that a war cycle would begin and that is what we are seeing.
If anyone ever tells you that you put too much Parmesan cheese on your pasta, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#19
Posted: 9/20/04 at 10:05am
Hey, it all depends on which Jewish rabbis you ask (says the Jew). Some of them would have you believe that the Messiah's already come in the form of a Hasidic Rebbe. Not that they'll agree on which on it was.

You want to vote for Bush just because he keeps saying "God" in his speeches, go ahead. I guess it saves you from actually having to think about the consequences of Bush's actions.

And we argue separation of church and state because it's in the First Amendment. Look it up some time. re: Bush Vs Kerry
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#20
Posted: 9/20/04 at 10:33am
It is bizarre to me that after the last four years that ANYONE would vote Bush.

-A stolen election

-A war that breaks every rule of warfare America has ever stood for.

-A terrorist still on the loose.

-JObs being shipped to factories overseas

-Denying rights to more and more taxpayers.

-A hateful rhetoric combined with the words "compassionate conservative".

-An education syatem on the decline.

-A disaster of an international record.

-Running as a uniter and then dividing the country more than any previous president.

-No work done on an ever-more-important social security debaucle.

-Jobless rates higher than they have been in MANY years.

-Coverups on SO MANY occasions it would be painful to list them all.

-Connections to terrorist families left unexplained.



Now, for ME, that points to a lying, godless president. Yes, he may say he loves God and tells the truth, but his "fruit" (in the biblical sense) points to the exact opposite.

"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong.'" -- unknown
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#21
Posted: 9/20/04 at 10:50am
"But do they also teach people to call people bigots and racists, *simply* because they do not agree with your ideals? Do you NOT see the hypocrisy there? Or is it just me? Or are people just refusing to see it?"

I see it every day on this very board, Guen. And as a Democrat, it sickens me that other so-called Democrats practice such hypocrisy. Tolerance means tolerance. Not tolerance for those who agree with you.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#22
Posted: 9/20/04 at 11:18am
Gotham - with all due respect to your thoughts, it is exactly that theocratic notion that scares and frustrates me completely. You are absolutely right as to the mind-set of the founding fathers. However, I don't think that takes into consideration the mid-set of the time period in general. At that point in human development, religion was very definitely the predominant molding force in the world. Considering where the framers of our constitution came from, it is unavoidable that the social ideals they promulgated were of a biblical origin.

However, even though they had a Christian mentality, the social order envisioned was based on the concept of individual liberty. As the world has become smaller, and the philosophies and knowledge of the world's culture's have come into confluence, it seems logical to me to interpret the ideas of the framers in modern context.

Even though there are plenty in the world who still use religion as a foundation from which to live their lives, I'm not sure it's acceptable at this point to define social order out of it - there have been too many questions raised and unanswered. And ultimately, the concept of using the narrowness of Christian ideals to proscibe life experience for all of our citizens seems in direct conflict with the notion of individual liberty. That is absolutely at the core of the gay rights struggle.

And to have that narrowness taken a step further to define our role in, and interaction with, the rest of the world seems culturally intrusive, and ultimately insulting to the traditions and social norms of their own societies. Specifically, the concept that our role in the middle east is somehow pre-determined or controlled by the thoughts expressed in the bible is specious at best, and dangerously myopic at worst.

I am in full appreciation of those who choose to let religion guide and direct their daily and life choices - as they affect them as individuals. But I am completely uncomfortable with the thought that that individual choice should somehow be translated into what is appropriate for our social system of order and control.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#23
Posted: 9/20/04 at 11:38am

Gotham:


"Actually we do not live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic..."


Then, pray tell, why does W constantly speak of bringing democracy to other countries? Since this is the revised reason he's used to jusitfy the war in Iraq, after no weapons (nor laboratories) of mass destruction have been found?

Please state where the Bible mentions that homosexual marriage is wrong.

From the US Treasury Department website:

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html


In God We Trust:


------------------------------------------------------------------------
History of 'In God We Trust'

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861.
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re: Bush Vs Kerry#24
Posted: 9/20/04 at 12:01pm
Not to mention that the Founding Fathers weren't exactly all Gentiles in the Bush vein. Thomas Jefferson, for instance, was probably more of a Deist than a Christian, and Benjamin Franklin definitely didn't go in for all the Puritan beliefs of his time. They were spiritual, no doubt, and believed in prayer and in one deity, but not necessarily in Bible-thumping. Franklin was a great opponent of such people on many occassion, and a proponent of religious diversity as well.