Page: 1

and yet another view of michael moore

papalovesmambo Profile Photopapalovesmambo Profile Photo
papalovesmambo
Broadway Legend
joined:11/4/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
11/4/03
and yet another view of michael moore#0
Posted: 7/30/04 at 8:27pm
ok, this might make me almost appreciate the democratic party.

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?cp=1&kaid=127&subid=177&contentid=252483
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
Plum
Broadway Legend
joined:3/4/04
Broadway Legend
joined:
3/4/04
re: and yet another view of michael moore#1
Posted: 7/30/04 at 9:09pm
I have definite problems with Moore, myself. Thanks for that link, papa.
jrb_actor Profile Photojrb_actor Profile Photo
jrb_actor
Broadway Legend
joined:5/16/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/16/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#2
Posted: 7/31/04 at 12:58am
But in comparison:

June 30, 2004
NY Daily News: "A soaring display of American patriotism"


June 28, 2004
New York Observer: “Sometimes Sarcastic, Always Funny, Mr. Moore is Armed with Facts, and He Presents Them Accurately and Succinctly.”


June 25, 2004
Chicago Tribune: "Among the Movies Everyone Should See This Year, "Fahrenheit 9/11" Heads the List."


June 25, 2004
Premiere Magazine: "An Explosive and Heart Wrenching Piece of Cinema"


June 25, 2004
San Francisco Chronicle: “In the 90-year History of the American Feature Film, There Has Never Been a Popular Election-year Documentary Like This One.”


June 24, 2004
Chicago Sun-Times :"Fahrenheit 9/11" is a Compelling, Persuasive film."


June 24, 2004
USA TODAY: "The Documentary's Scathing Attack on the War in Iraq and George W. Bush's Presidency is Informative, Provocative, Frightening, Compelling, Funny, Manipulative and, Most of All, Entertaining."


June 23, 2004
Los Angeles Times: "This Landmark in American Political Filmmaking Demands to be Seen."


June 17, 2004
The Nation: Fahrenheit 9/11 is Michael Moore's Most Urgent Diatribe and Also His Best, Most Moving Film."


June 16, 2004
Rolling Stone: "Did I Mention that Fahrenheit 9/11 is Ferociously, Cathartically Funny?”"


June 15, 2004
Fox News: "A Really Brilliant Piece of Work, and a Film that Members of All Political Parties Should See Without Fail. "


May 28, 2004
The Capital Times : Moore's movie moment

For links to these reviews:

http://www.fahrenheit911.com/about/press/
POLisPOL Profile PhotoPOLisPOL Profile Photo
POLisPOL
Broadway Legend
joined:5/18/04
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/18/04
re: and yet another view of michael moore#3
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:03am
I just saw the documentary of 9/11
I share with mr. Moore the hate against Bush... but as a documentary movie... fahrenheit 9/11 sucks.
I like the content, but not how it's presented. It's like viewing a tv news program with humor bits.
and at the end of the documentary, Moore lost the interest to prove things, and take the easy way: let's make cry the people!
In other hand, in europe many people doesn't know who is conolezza rice, and people like this... so many people across the world get lost in a crowd of names which are not explained who they are.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!
jrb_actor Profile Photojrb_actor Profile Photo
jrb_actor
Broadway Legend
joined:5/16/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/16/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#4
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:07am
That is a fantastic perspective, pol--I would imagine the film would play differently outside of the US. I will agree to that flaw--Moore should have given more exposition of those profiled so that others and generations to come would have better perspective.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend
joined:7/22/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
7/22/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#5
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:07am
Oh my god, that's exactly how I felt about Wicked.
Chat with the groan-ups: https://twitter.com/NamoInExile
POLisPOL Profile PhotoPOLisPOL Profile Photo
POLisPOL
Broadway Legend
joined:5/18/04
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/18/04
re: and yet another view of michael moore#6
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:11am
in non-english countries, we don't use to watch cnn, fox, cbs... and our tv networks always talks about our countries. We recieve a lot of information coming from the states, but we don't have the same amount of news that you have about your country. btw. this week we have kerry and mrs heinz all day long in the news program
In other hand, I want to insist that I really share my political toughs with mr Moore, but as a documentary is not a good work.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!
jrb_actor Profile Photojrb_actor Profile Photo
jrb_actor
Broadway Legend
joined:5/16/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/16/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#7
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:16am
Well, I would never deny you that opinion, I was just referencing those aforementioned reviews to indicate that most reputable reviewers indeed consider the film to be good filmmaking. In fact, Tarantino told Moore that Cannes gave Moore the award for the quality of film making, not the politics. I know that might be hard to believe, but given the make up of the panel--it isn't entirely so. :)
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend
joined:7/22/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
7/22/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#8
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:16am
It is a polemic. It has a strong point of view. As does everything, including the documentaries that pretend they do not have a point of view.
Chat with the groan-ups: https://twitter.com/NamoInExile
POLisPOL Profile PhotoPOLisPOL Profile Photo
POLisPOL
Broadway Legend
joined:5/18/04
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/18/04
re: and yet another view of michael moore#9
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:21am
jrb, I read many of those reviews... the thing that everybody talks is about how polemic, funny, and political is.
Nothing about the awful cinematography, the poor editing, the absence of graphics to tell things more easy....
In fact, nothing is important 'cause the content of the movie is so hard for itself. But Moore has enough money to make a more decent movie.
And tarantino... when I heard him at the press conf. I though that he was excusing the fact that they give the prize to a documentary.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!
jrb_actor Profile Photojrb_actor Profile Photo
jrb_actor
Broadway Legend
joined:5/16/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/16/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#10
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:26am
You may have a point there, pol. But, I thoroughly enjoy Moore's work--politics aside. (I know--hard to believe).
POLisPOL Profile PhotoPOLisPOL Profile Photo
POLisPOL
Broadway Legend
joined:5/18/04
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/18/04
re: and yet another view of michael moore#11
Posted: 7/31/04 at 1:28am
technical things apart, I enjoyed too f9/11 the thing is that I liked much more (as a movie) Bowling for columbine.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!
Plum
Broadway Legend
joined:3/4/04
Broadway Legend
joined:
3/4/04
re: and yet another view of michael moore#12
Posted: 7/31/04 at 2:22am
Even neutrality is a point of view, really. But Moore still pisses me off. Is there anything about America he likes? At all? Or am I missing something?
jrb_actor Profile Photojrb_actor Profile Photo
jrb_actor
Broadway Legend
joined:5/16/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/16/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#13
Posted: 7/31/04 at 2:25am
See-that is really all wrong. The point of his criticizing is that he does love America. He believes that America can do better. It is the most patriotic thing one can do. I thought the film was very patriotic.
papalovesmambo Profile Photopapalovesmambo Profile Photo
papalovesmambo
Broadway Legend
joined:11/4/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
11/4/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#14
Posted: 7/31/04 at 7:33am
consider this a drive-by...

since some seem to be in the thrall of the country's leading conspiracy theorist, i thought i'd cherry pick some of mickey mouse moore's better quotes over the last three years and share them.

on the brave men of the iraqi resistance, whose heroic methods include kidnapping, widespread slaughter of the innocent via remote control, and, let's not forget, televised beheadings:

"the Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'the enemy.' they are the revolution, the minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win. get it, mr. bush?"

michaelmoore.com 04/14/04

from the same column he explains why the un should not get involved because it's better that american blood be shed:

"there is a lot of talk amongst bush's opponents that we should turn this war over to the united nations. why should the other countries of this world, countries who tried to talk us out of this folly, now have to clean up our mess? i oppose the u.n. or anyone else risking the lives of their citizens to extract us from our debacle. i'm sorry, but the majority of americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe -- just maybe -- god and the iraqi people will forgive us in the end."

michaelmoore.com 04/14/04

that mickey, he's all heart ain't he?

but remember he's a proud patriotic american, isn't he? let's look at how he views his country, shall we?

on small businesses:

"if the small businesses suck they'll be driven out of business. if they got a good restaurant, people will go there and eat. you know in my town the small businesses that everyone wanted to protect? they were the people that supported all the right-wing groups. they were the republicans in the town, they were in the kiwanas, the chamber of commerce - people that kept the town all white. the small hardware salesman, the small clothing store salespersons, jesse the barber who signed his name three different times on three different petitions to recall me from the school board. f**k all these small businesses - f**k 'em all! bring in the chains. the small businesspeople are the rednecks that run the town and suppress the people. f**k 'em all. that's how i feel."

arcata eye 03/12/02

on 9/11, which was planned and trained under president clinton and would have happened regardless of who was sitting in the oval office:

"if someone did this to get back at bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who did not vote for him! boston, new york, d.c., and the planes' destination of california -- these were places that voted against bush!"

michaelmoore.com 09/12/01

on american restraint and control (without the slightest hint of irony):

"i agree with the national rifle association when they say, 'guns don't kill people, people kill people. except i would alter that to say, 'guns don't kill people, americans kill people.' we're the only country that does this, and we do it on an personal level in our neighborhoods and within our families and our schools, and we do it on a global level."

mickey on the today show, nbc 03/21/04

on the accuracy and veracity of his own book, "stupid white men," in an exchange with lou dobbs on cnn's moneyline:

dobbs: i was amazed. salon.com just took you to task on this book, pointing out glaring inaccuracies, which -- what in the world...

more: some of these, i think they found some guy named dan was named dave, and there was another thing. but you know, look, this is a book of political humor. so, i mean, i don't respond to that sort of stuff, you know.

dobbs: glaring inaccuracies?

moore: no, i don't. why should i? how can there be inaccuracy in comedy? you know.

dobbs: that does give one license.

cnn 04/12/02

and on americans:

"they are possibly the dumbest people on the planet… in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pr*cks."

"we americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. we don't know about anything that's happening outside our country. our stupidity is embarrassing."

the [u.k.] daily mirror , 11/3/03

"don't go the American way when it comes to economics, jobs and services for the poor and immigrants. it is the wrong way."

die zeit, september 2003

"our ethic in america is, 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps. every man for himself. me, me, me, me, me.' and, and it's, it's just, i think it helps to, you know, create this, this climate where people then become violent toward each other."

today show, nbc, october 2002

"but i believe that there is something different about you and american dna. if you get sick in america: f*ck you! if you are poor in american: f*ck you! we're about beating you down when you are down."

http://www.geraldpeary.com/interviews/mno/moore.html

yep, those are the words of someone who loves america.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
Updated On: 7/31/04 at 07:33 AM
iflitifloat Profile Photoiflitifloat Profile Photo
iflitifloat
Broadway Legend
joined:10/10/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
10/10/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#15
Posted: 7/31/04 at 8:40am
Michael Moore is one of those people you're never sure you're glad to have on your side. Certainly YOU know what I'm talkin' about, papa re: and yet another view of michael moore....

Anyway...

I'm glad he exists. I'm glad he makes his films. And I'm glad he does the talk show circuit (caught him on Bill Maher last night, along with Ralph "I am a player" Nader).
But he always makes me squirm. He makes me realize that I need to check the ideological foundation on which I stand. And I'm not totally convinced that that isn't, in part, his goal. Once again last night, he acknowledged that 9/11 is one-sided...he's never claimed otherwise..as he said, "It's MY opinion."

Manipulation of the facts and spin happen every minute of every day on the news channels. (Watch ANY interview or sound byte from W or the boys...) Michael Moore, and his in-your-face know-it-all persona, just happens to go about making HIS points in a flamboyant and entertaining manner.

And what does Michael Moore love about this country? My guess is that he loves that he still has the right to make his films and voice his opinions. My guess is also that he is a huge fan of the Constitution. (You don't need a roadmap to see where I'm heading here, do you?) I'll save my rant about pissing on the Constitution for another time and another thread, but lets just say that I hope Kerry wasn't just whistling Dixie when he promised to give America an Attorney General who would uphold the Constitution of the United States. Because we certainly don't have one right now.
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
Broadway Legend
joined:12/31/69
Broadway Legend
joined:
12/31/69
re: and yet another view of michael moore#16
Posted: 7/31/04 at 9:53am
papa - I'm not sure you can look at his quotes and deduce that he categorically does not love America. There is truth in much of what he says about the population in general. We can be woefully ignorant about what's going on in our own back yards, much less about the rest of the world. Comparatively speaking, we just don't have the awarenesses that many in other parts of the world do. HOWEVER, simply pointing this out doesn't mean you think that's all we can be - it merely identifies the situation as it stands. He doesn't say that's all we can be, he simply says that's all we're allowing ourselves to be. I liken it to family bonds - I can say my brother is a lazy, shiftless, misdirected miscreant, and that's my right. If someone else were to say it, i'd have to do a little damage.

As to the Iraqi insurgents, their methods may not be all that pretty to watch, but they are playing the game with whatever tools they get their hands on. Supposedly, this is a 'war' - are you implying if they used the tools of the American military (ie - Guantanamo, computer guided missiles) then everything would be so much more acceptable?

As to the UN involvement, I think he's voicing his opinion using the tone that was introduced to the UN discussion by this administration. When many in the world didn't just jump up and say to the US, "OK, you're right, let's go to war," the public reaction from the administration was to vilify, denegrate and condemn - in some very harsh and specific terms - yes, even up to and including comments that suggested they deserved to lose lives because of their position. Mr. Moore has only turned that rhetoric onto the US. What's intriguing to me, is this 'up and down' necessity for the UN's involvement. When they didn't want to just accept our playbook and keep their mouths shut, they were ineffective and in the way. Now, however, it seems that their responsiblity is not to get out of the way and shut up, but to get in there and participate despite what they were told. I never did like bullies.

Ultimately, it may certainly be argued that Mr. Moore sometimes presents his positions without always using logical premises - or even correct information - but that would seem to be the order of the day. At least that's what the American public is being asked to accept as justification for whatever decisions are being made by our 'leadership.' Mr. Moore is just a rabblerouser who tries to stir up debate. This administration (which also dabbles in shakey data and a fair amount of hate-mongering) is responsible for the daily lives of the citizens under its care. I, personally, know which of these causes me the most concern.
Broadway Legend
joined:12/31/69
Broadway Legend
joined:
12/31/69
re: and yet another view of michael moore#17
Posted: 7/31/04 at 10:26am
The Democrats don't exactly raise their credibility quotient by having Al Sharpton speak and Michael Moore roaming around the convention floor getting more attention than the politicians.

Sure one can find many thing to criticize about the Republicans, but the Democrats aren't without their own faults and not that far apart from the Republicans in the credibility gap...but I digress from the topic...Mr. Moore...

Moore and Sharpton, two examples of media hungry individuals willing to say/do anything to get attention, in my opinion. How can any serious individual give nay of their comments anything more than a moment of attention?



Broadway Legend
joined:12/31/69
Broadway Legend
joined:
12/31/69
re: and yet another view of michael moore#18
Posted: 7/31/04 at 10:30am
Jose' - I think the 'serious individual' has to acknowledge the impact of Mr. Moore and his views on the general public. He's a best-selling author, and now has all this added publicity from his film work. I don't particularly feel like many of these ranters have much to contribute (ie - Moore, Limbaugh,) but to ignore the reach they have into the American public's psyche is a bit misguided, in my opinion.
iflitifloat Profile Photoiflitifloat Profile Photo
iflitifloat
Broadway Legend
joined:10/10/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
10/10/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#19
Posted: 7/31/04 at 10:54am
The Democrats and the Republicans both have to accomodate their wackos and fringe element. The difference is, that the extremists in the Republican party are holding the purse strings and exerting a disproportionate amount of control on those in power. Sharpton and Moore, while having voices that speak to many NOT at the center of their party, are also not ghost writing Constitutional amendments or shaping foreign policy.

I would be the first in line to agree that the Democratic Party is flawed. Big time. In fact, I would classify myself as a reluctant Democrat, at best. But I see a sizeable difference between the two, and for that reason, I will support the Dems and Kerry, at least this time around.
Sueleen Gay: "Here you go, Bitch, now go make some fukcing lemonade." 10/28/10
Broadway Legend
joined:12/31/69
Broadway Legend
joined:
12/31/69
re: and yet another view of michael moore#20
Posted: 7/31/04 at 11:17am
Speaking for myself I will say that I'm not misguided in my opnion, DG. Obviously the media, doing it's job, give Moore and Sharpton the attention they seek and thus by doing so bring the eyes and ears of the masses to their verbal spillage. If there's anyone who might be misguided, in my opinion, it is the group that gives the two of them credence, but hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Like Iflit, I, too, am reluctant. In my case however reluctant to vote for Bush given his public stances on the gay marriage matter. I can't simply excuse his position as political posturing for the Conservatives' benefit. Then again, the Democrats aren't exactly saying that marriage for Gays and Lesbians should be legalized either.

As for Mr. Moore and Mr. Sharpton...where do they stand on the gay marriage matter? Do they thoughts count as they have been given moments in the spotlight? Would you consider marrying either of them? re: and yet another view of michael moore

jrb_actor Profile Photojrb_actor Profile Photo
jrb_actor
Broadway Legend
joined:5/16/03
Broadway Legend
joined:
5/16/03
re: and yet another view of michael moore#21
Posted: 7/31/04 at 12:54pm
I agree with DGrant, papa---your post only furthers my opinion that Moore wants better for this country. His criticisms are right on the money.

And, I have no shame of either Moore or Sharpton. Both have the guts to say the things that few others would. And, Sharpton is very outspoken in support of equal rights for gays and lesbians, including gay marriage. He and Carol Mosley Braun both included the fight as part of the Civil Rights movement during the primary debates.