The Great "Bright" Way- Page 2

[Princeton2]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 5:14pm

uncageg said: "No, that won't happen and as a member of the Black community, we are ok with being called black or African American. I can't speak for the entire community but in my many years on this earth I haven't met a person that has had a problem with it. We embrace it."

This is part of the problem and what causes confusion. While you say the black community are fine with African American, that's not actually true as I've seen several  black commentators recently saying African American is not an ok term anymore, mainly because not all black people come from/or have ancestors from Africa. Completely understandable and valid comment but the confusion doesnt help people know what the right thing to say is. Especially in a society so obsessed with labels for everyone these days.

 

[uncageg]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 5:23pm

Princeton2 said: "uncageg said: "No, that won't happen and as a member of the Black community, we are ok with being called black or African American. I can't speak for the entire community but in my many years on this earth I haven't met a person that has had a problem with it. We embrace it."

This is part of the problem and what causes confusion. While you say the black community are fine with African American, that's not actually true as I've seen several black commentators recently saying African American is not an ok term anymore, mainly because not all black people come from/or have ancestors from Africa. Completely understandable and valid comment but the confusion doesnt help people know what the right thing to say is. Especially in a society so obsessed with labels for everyone these days."

 

Read my comment. I said I can't speak for the entire community. That may be how they feel,  but they don't speak for the whole community.  The people in my life over the years have not had problems with it no matter what a commentator on tv says.

 

[fosterfan2]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 5:28pm

What is the origin of "Great White Way"? How did Broadway get that nickname?

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 5:47pm

I think we are getting way off track here. We don't need to revisit the robe or other ancillary topics, or debate extant labels (whether accurate or not). The bottom line is that we need to hunt down and kill "subconscious bias."  

[uncageg]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 5:59pm

The nickname “The Great White Way” was inspired by all the electric white lights on the theatre marquees and billboard signs that illuminated the area. By the 1920s, the spectacle that was Times Square had become famous, and the Great White Way nickname became known worldwide.

[fosterfan2]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 9:13pm

Thanks. :)

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 9:32pm

hork said: "HogansHero said: "A good point. Society including obviously the arts will be reexamining the subtle good-vs-bad meanings attached to the colors white and black that permeate our minds. Black swans, white wedding dresses, black masks, etc."

This seems backwards to me. Instead of changing the meanings of things that are actually black and white, we should stop calling human beings "black" and "white," which are not only inaccurate but are racist terms coined by colonialist Europeans. Not that I expect this to happen within my lifetime."

As the black sheep of my family, I agree. I understand the historical reasons for the adoption of the label "black"--and it's fine with me if African Americans want to continue to use it. I'll use any label any minority group chooses; everybody has the right to self-name.

But to demand we go back and police every mention of the words "black" and "white" for the past 500 years of modern English is ridiculous (not to mention impossible).

It's good to know the insanity phase of racial re-evaluation continues unabated. (And I'm not picking on Whoopi Goldberg. I'm a fan. She had a thought and expressed it on her show, as is her job. But, upon reflection, hers is not a practical suggestion.)

 

 

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 9:49pm

Here’s the original clip:

 

[Tag]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 9:52pm

Whoopi is spoon-fed through a teleprompter and earpiece the entire show.  She rarely knows what is going on.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 9:59pm

Tag said: "Whoopi is spoon-fed through a teleprompter and earpiece the entire show. She rarely knows what is going on."

I didn't know that, Tag; I don't watch the show. I just think it's a silly suggestion.

[Robbie2]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 10:01pm

https://www.spotlightonbroadway.com/the-great-white-way-0

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 10:04pm

@Gaveston, this is not about word police, nor is it a mindset that can be cured in short order. It is about rethinking what underlies the pain to which a large segment of our society is subjected by constant bombardment. It saddens me that your takeaway from the events of the last few weeks is that re-evaluation of systemic racism is "insane." 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 10:20pm

HogansHero said: "@Gaveston, this is not about word police, nor is it a mindset that can be cured in short order. It is about rethinking what underlies the pain to which a large segment of oursociety is subjected by constant bombardment. It saddens methat your takeaway from the events of the last few weeks is that re-evaluation of systemic racism is "insane.""

I didn't say that, Hogan. I said we seem to be in the "insanity phase" of the re-evaluation. I'm all for re-evaluating our social constructs and I have long wondered about the impact of identifying as "black" in a culture the language of which uses the same word as a metaphor for evil, danger, and the most negative forces and factors. (Again, I'm not criticizing activists who chose "black" over "Negro" and "colored"; that wasn't my call. I'm just saying I wondered about the impact on African Americans, particularly when they were growing up.)

Frankly, I don't care whether Broadway is known as "White" or "Bright". But that barely scratches the surface of the thousands of symbolic references to white and black (and light and dark) in the English language. We aren't going to change them all and the notion that we will is, indeed, (temporary) insanity. It ain't gonna happen and you know it as well as I.

When gay people were trying to create more positive identities for ourselves, the word "gay" was chosen as a rallying point. But nobody made anybody stop using the word in its older meanings; nobody has decreed that all mentions of the word "queer" be stricken or changed so we can save it for our rallies. It's one thing to self-label; it's quite enough to imagine a world-wide lexicon is going to be significantly changed upon demand.

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 6/24/20 at 11:54pm

I think that’s well said. I’m from the South and my mom is always complaining - she’s originally from the North - about how “south” as a word always has such a bad connotation. But it’s like black and white. I’m not sure we are going to be able to change those definitions and I’m sure the negative vs positive aspects predates anything to do with the civil war.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 12:17am

@Gaveston I am glad you explained what you meant.

I don't think that the process I am contemplating is as monumental as you think but I would ask you to process it a little differently. You mention the self-identification by blacks, but how about the self-identification by whites that antedated it? 

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 12:28am

I think “The Great White Way” is very similar to “#blacklivesmatter” in that you need to do some research to educate yourself on the top.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 5:51pm

SouthernCakes said: "I think “The Great White Way” is very similar to “#blacklivesmatter” in that you need to do some research to educate yourself on the top."

I don't know about that, SC. I have been baffled by the objection to the term #blacklivesmatter. I think it takes some questionable intent to assume that #blacklivesmatter means other lives DON'T matter.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 6:01pm

HogansHero said: "@GavestonI am glad you explained what you meant.

I don't think that the process I am contemplating is as monumental as you think but I would ask you to process it a little differently. You mention the self-identification by blacks, but how about the self-identification by whites that antedated it?"

I suspect the association of white and light with goodness, and black and dark with evil, dates back to Neolithic campfires, where the darkness all around was full of lethal beasts.

That it was later applied to human beings is tragic, of course.

But even now, most kids start out afraid of the dark at some point. I don't think scrubbing the language is going to change that. So the question for African Americans is this: is it preferable to embrace the "negative identity" (sociology term for the embracing of negative stereotypes by minority groups) of "black", at the expense of inadvertently acquiring the derogatory associations of the color? Or would another label be preferable at this point in the Civil Rights Movement?

As I said above, it is not my call; nor do I think the comfort of white people should be a factor in the choice. I will use whatever term seems preferred by those it describes. (And to be clear, a "negative identity" has its benefits: it's a way of fighting fire with fire. I do understand this.)

In the meantime, "I'm Dreaming of a Bright Christmas" anyone?

 

[PatrickDC]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 6:10pm

Do people still use the term "Great White Way" that often? I don't live in NYC so maybe they do there.

Just seems like one small comment that is getting way too much attention thanks to social media. Not everything is racist. This is no white privilege agenda behind every single term or phrase. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 8:00pm

PatrickDC said: "Do people still use the term "Great White Way" that often? I don't live in NYC so maybe they do there.

Just seems like one small comment that is getting way too much attention thanks to social media. Not everything is racist.This is no white privilege agenda behind every single term or phrase."

I think you're right, Patrick. Whether Miss Goldberg thought of it or the show writers did, I imagine the remark was prepared to generate conversation, which is, after all, the entire content of the hour. Nothing more.

And now that I've had a day to think about it, perhaps the point of the question wasn't to invite a re-invention of the entire English language. We've all agreed that Broadway in particular and American theater in general should become less of a "white people" pastime and more inclusive to people of other backgrounds. Maybe the "Great Bright Way" question was only meant to provoke thought on how to make Broadway audiences more diverse, and not, as I and others heard it, a stand-in for every use of the word "white" in English.

[Tag]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 8:24pm

GavestonPS said: "In the meantime, "I'm Dreaming of a Bright Christmas" anyone?"

My fav suggestion that I've seen so far - Great Bite Shark

 

Updated On: 6/25/20 at 08:24 PM

[CT2NYC]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 8:34pm

It seems to me that some people are missing the point. This isn’t a matter of removing “black” and “white“ from every questionable phrase. On its face, the expression “The Great White Way” sounds like a slogan for white supremacists. Although I’m assuming most people realize that it doesn’t refer to caucasians, the actual meaning isn’t totally clear.
 
So, going forward, why would Broadway want to use a nickname that sounds extremely racist, regardless of what it actually means? Not everyone who hears the term will have someone there to tell them that it refers to the lights of Broadway, most of which aren’t even white anymore. Changing it to “The Great Bright Way” makes more sense, and it doesn’t require an explanation.

Updated On: 6/25/20 at 08:34 PM

[bawoman]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 10:26pm

I am sure this will end racism, inequality etc.

Dear god, we are doomed.

[bawoman]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 10:27pm

CT2NYC said: "It seems to me that some people are missing the point. This isn’t a matter of removing “black” and “white“ from every questionable phrase.On its face, theexpression “The Great White Way” sounds like a slogan for white supremacists. Although I’m assuming most peoplerealize that it doesn’t refer to caucasians, the actual meaning isn’t totally clear.

So, going forward, why would Broadway wantto use a nickname thatsounds extremelyracist, regardless of what it actually means?Not everyone who hears the term will have someone there to tell themthat it refers to the lights of Broadway, most of which aren’t even white anymore. Changing it to “The Great Bright Way” makes more sense, and it doesn’t require an explanation."

But it doesn't sound extremely racist

[bawoman]

Posted: 6/25/20 at 10:31pm

Tag said: "GavestonPS said: "In the meantime, "I'm Dreaming of a Bright Christmas" anyone?"

My fav suggestion that I've seen so far - Great Bite Shark

"

Have to wonder if we are ever going to be allowed to describe something white in a complimentary manner.

"The bride wore a beautiful white dress" to be changed to "The bride wore a beautiful unpigmented dress"?

 

Seems about right