Phantom to change to "re-staged" production in flagship productions?- Page 6

[Lot666]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 7:13am

joevitus said: "if he was willing to replace it with a cheap copy, what reason is there for him to not do the same with Phantom"

He sees no reason, only $$$$$.

 

[KingOfTheMine]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 7:31am

*Double post*

Updated On: 7/29/20 at 07:31 AM

[KingOfTheMine]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 7:46am

In response to the announcement from Mackintosh, ALW tweeted: "As far as I'm concerned Phantom will reopen as soon as is possible."
I wonder if ALW had any input in this decision. It seems from his public statements that it was done against his wishes.

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 7:58am

What particularly interests me about this thread is that Macintosh in no way cares about Phantom as much as Les Miz.. In fact, ALW wanted the Barbicon or the Palace (can't remember which) for Phantom, and Macintosh refused, giving it to Les Miz instead. That show was his baby. So if he was willing to replace it with a cheap copy, what reason is there for him to not do the same with Phantom, other that than the arguable point that Phantom's visula effects are more essenital to the meaning and logic of the work than in the case of Les Miz?

Not quite right - ALW owned the Palace at the time and originally wanted Phantom there, but he'd already agreed to let CM have it for Miz. So for the first 18 years or so of Miz's run in London, ALW was effectively the landlord. On Broadway, ALW and Hal Prince favoured the Majestic. Cameron wanted it to go in the Martin Beck (now the Al Hirschfeld), and there has long been speculation that this was because Cameron didn't want the show's box office sales to eclipse Les Mis's at the time...though he denies this. Anyway, Hal and Andrew overruled Cameron re that decision.

Re ALW's latest tweet, I don't really trust it. Also, he told Riedel when lockdown started that he had "huge plans to rebrand and refresh" the show, which suggests this has been in the planning for some time, but that COVID is simply the cover excuse.

 

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 10:04am

Cameron Mackintosh did say they have plans to bring it back, but since all the old set and costumes have already been loaded out, I have a sneaking suspicion they’re going to bring in that cheap “restaged” version if there ever is a revival.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 11:33am

The plan is to bring in the new version.

This is totally calculated on Cam Mac’s part. As if the man doesn’t have enough money already. Do not believe for one second that this ‘we have to close because of Covid’ nonsense is in anyway true.

[Tag]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 11:50am

There are two "new" versions.  Which one?

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 2:07pm

Tag said: "There are two "new" versions. Which one?"

Ah, that is something I don’t know. But I can tell you with authority that this is a move based on utter greed and nothing at all to do with the lockdown. With the passing of both Hal Prince and Dame Gillian Lynne, Cam Mac has been propelling this plan forward for some time. The estates no longer get their royalties, Cam Mac makes a lot more money and he looks like he somehow ‘saved’ the show by working tirelessly to bring it back in some form. The man has millions, he does not need to do this. That show could run for another hundred years. It is utterly, utterly deceitful and revolting.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 2:15pm

On second thought, the more I think about it, the more I think it’s possible that they also shut down the new UK tour because they’re planning on using that tour’s sets and costumes for some sort of revival of Phantom. From what I understand, that production was a replica while at the same time using cheaper set pieces, so it’s possible they plan on using all that new stuff they just had put together for the UK tour as the London production’s new equipment. What with the reports of them needing to replace a lot of the set pieces that were over thirty years old and falling apart, this would be an opportune time for them to make those changes and possibly open in a different theatre that’s cheaper to occupy. The fact that they even felt the need to close the restaged UK tour and try opening another replica production before the pandemic hit shows me that CamMack might not want to risk using a production that wasn’t as well-received by British audiences as, say, the restaged Les Mis apparently was.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 2:17pm

Elfuhbuh said: "On second thought, the more I think about it, the more I think it’s possible that they also shut down the new UK tour because they’re planning on using that tour’s sets and costumes for some sort of revival of Phantom. From what I understand, that production was a replica while at the same time using cheaper set pieces, so it’s possible they plan on using all that new stuff they just had put together for the UK tour as the London production’s new equipment. What with the reports of them needing to replace a lot of the set pieces that were over thirty years old and falling apart, this would be an opportune time for them to make those changes and possibly open in a different theatre that’s cheaper to occupy. The fact that they even felt the need to close the restaged UK tour and try opening another replica production before the pandemic hit shows me that CamMack might not want to risk using a production that wasn’t as well-received by British audiences as, say, the restaged Les Mis apparently was. "

Unfortunately, no it is not that.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 2:20pm

Do you have insider info?

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 2:46pm

Elfuhbuh said: "Do you have insider info?"

I do. The message above yours. Sigh...

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 3:23pm

I mean do you have info coming from an inside source, or are you guessing?

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 3:27pm

The Scorpion said: "What particularly interests me about this thread is that Macintosh in no way cares about Phantom as much as Les Miz.. In fact, ALW wanted the Barbicon or the Palace (can't remember which)for Phantom, and Macintosh refused, giving it to Les Miz instead. That show was his baby. So if he was willing to replace it with a cheap copy, what reason is there for him to not do the same with Phantom, other that than the arguable point that Phantom's visula effects are more essenital to the meaning and logic of the work than in the case of Les Miz?

Not quite right - ALW owned the Palace at the time and originally wanted Phantom there, but he'd already agreed to let CM have it for Miz. So for the first 18 years or so of Miz's run in London, ALW was effectively the landlord. On Broadway, ALW and Hal Prince favoured the Majestic. Cameron wanted it to go in the Martin Beck (now the Al Hirschfeld), and there has long been speculation that this was because Cameron didn't want the show's box office sales to eclipse Les Mis's at the time...though he denies this. Anyway, Hal and Andrew overruled Cameron re that decision.

Re ALW's latest tweet, I don't really trust it. Also, he told Riedel when lockdown started that he had "huge plans to rebrand and refresh" the show, which suggests this has been in the planning for some time, but that COVID is simply the cover excuse.

"

Thank you for the correction!

[Tag]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 3:55pm

Loopin’theloop said: "Elfuhbuh said: "Do you have insider info?"

I do. The message above yours. Sigh..."

None of what you've said is "insider info".  We all know this.

[MSecaur]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 4:15pm

Hot Pants said: "This is just straight up disrespectful to Hal Prince. One of the advantages of Phantom running so long is that despite his passing, his work would continue to be seen and loved. Keep his staging. It’s worked for decades and it’ll continue to work now."

I absolutely agree. I was lucky enough to catch one of the final performances of the original tour in 2010, just before it closed. Nothing can compare with Hal Prince's staging, Maria Bjornson's designs, and Gillian Lynne's choreography. To even consider bringing back "Phantom" without their contributions is wrong on so many levels, especially since all three are no longer with us.

While I am praying that Andrew Lloyd Webber is successful in overrulling Cameron Mackintosh's hope for a watered-down production, the decision to close rather than suspend the show may actually have some method behind the madness.

According to this article, the plans to refurbish Phantom's sets and Her Majesty's Theatre have been in the works since last year, even before the pandemic began shutting things down.

https://www.whatsonstage.com/london-theatre/news/the-phantom-of-the-opera-west-end-closure_51821.html

And according to a post on this message-board, for the last 30+ years, the musicians and crew have both been on running contracts, which means that even if they're no longer needed or wanted due to changing technology, there's no way to fire them until the show ends its run.

https://theatreboard.co.uk/thread/150/phantom-opera?page=75

Reading between the lines, by shutting down the show, they can start with a cleaner, cheaper slate. By pulling out of HM's, they not only can avoid the theatre refurbishment costs, but they also won't have the same constraints if they need to expand the orchestra pit, etc., to accomodate distance between people, as it is a Grade II listed building and loaned to ALW by the Crown rather than owned outright.

While this is just my own conjecture here, I think it's entirely possible that POTO may end up reopening at the ALW-owned London Palladium, likely with a smaller crew and orchestra, but hopefully the same production otherwise. I personally think it's suggestive that ALW chose to use the Palladium for his post-COVID test reopening last week, a theatre with twice the capacity of HM's and a fresher refurbishment.

I'm hoping that CM's "permanently closing" was intended to shock the British government into finally paying out the 2.5 billion pounds in money allocated to save the arts, which they incidentially didn't make public until July 5th, and only after the Royal Albert Hall announced that they might have to close after 150 years if they didn't get financial assistance. To me, his Evening Standard tell-all came at a weird time, before he got any bailout money, and just a few days before London theatres are set to open on August 1st. It also seems like a huge about-face from June, when he still was saying that extended closure and refurbishment was the goal. 

Updated On: 7/29/20 at 04:15 PM

[JennH]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 5:08pm

This whole situation sounds like a behind-the-scenes drama/****show between ALW and Cam....but I think this whole thing is what we feared...if POTO has the potential to not survive this, what can?

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 7:01pm

Tag said: "Loopin’theloop said: "Elfuhbuh said: "Do you have insider info?"

I do. The message above yours. Sigh..."

None of what you've said is "insider info". We all know this."

Well yes, I suppose you are right it’s pretty common knowledge. I do however know it from within the Cam Mac organisation and have seen the ugliness up close. 

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 7/29/20 at 7:05pm

Elfuhbuh said: "I mean do you have info coming from an inside source, or are you guessing?"

Not guessing. I know from inside but as Tag stating it’s pretty much common knowledge that this is what is going on. 

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 7/30/20 at 2:23am

I think we can all agree that CM is taking advantage of the pandemic to update Phantom with a cheaper (for him) version. All signs point to the new international/UK tour, pictures of which have been linked multiple times in this thread so I won't link them again. But to the typical audience member who saw Phantom on tour 20 years ago, this new production probably won't look that different to them. To devoted phans like myself and many others on this thread, it will be downright devastating. And to Prince, Bjornson, and Lynne, it will be changed just enough and/or considered a new production so that their contracts are null and void. This is all in reference to the London production. I don't think there's any hope that the 1986 original, with the chandelier, angel, and proscenium in place will ever be seen again in London. Just look at the new Les Miz; people love it and it got great reviews in the British press and it's as strong as ever. From a business perspective, why wouldn't CM use this time to pull the same stunt with Phantom?  And while he's at it, paint himself as the savior of the show because the 1986 original is so decrepit and unsafe and "at the end of its natural life" as he said, and only CM could possibly save it and UPDATE it while he's at it!  So to the 99% of theater go-ers who don't care what version of Phantom they're getting, this is all much ado about nothing anyway. To me and other devoted phans, he is taking away a piece of art that functions as an essential part of my psyche and soul. I know that sounds a bit strong but it's true. I can handle all the judgment and snark this board can muster about that so have at it. 

The only question left: What is happening to Broadway's Phantom?  Has anyone seen load out trucks at the Majestic?  The sets are about a year younger (loaded in in late 1987 vs mid 1986) so they should be ready to fall apart any minute as well. Does anyone legit think there's a chance that the London Phantom gets an update while the Broadway Phantom stays original?   

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 7/30/20 at 5:41am

Phantom4ever said: "I think we can all agree that CM is taking advantage of the pandemic to update Phantom with a cheaper (for him) version. All signs point to the new international/UK tour, pictures of which have been linked multiple times in this thread so I won't link them again. But to the typical audience member who saw Phantom on tour 20 years ago, this new production probably won't look that different to them. To devoted phans like myself and many others on this thread, it will be downright devastating. And to Prince, Bjornson, and Lynne, it will be changed just enough and/or considered a new production so that their contracts are null and void. This is all in reference to the London production. I don't think there's any hope that the 1986 original, with the chandelier, angel, and proscenium in place will ever be seen again in London. Just look at the new Les Miz; people love it and it got great reviews in the British press and it's as strong as ever. From a business perspective, why wouldn't CM use this time to pull the same stunt with Phantom? And while he's at it, paint himself as the savior of the show because the 1986 original is so decrepit and unsafe and "at the end of its natural life" as he said, and only CM could possibly save it and UPDATE it while he's at it! So to the 99% of theater go-ers who don't care what version of Phantom they're getting, this is all much ado about nothing anyway. To me and other devoted phans, he is taking away a piece of art that functions as an essential part of my psycheand soul. I know that sounds a bit strong but it's true. I can handle all the judgment and snark this board can muster about that so have at it.

I fear you are right. And I worry that the public won't know enough to care, though I could be wrong on that. The only weird thing about that is ALW has consistently said his most theatrical effect is the rising of the chandelier, which didn't happen in the 2020 tour, so they might reinstate that. I really don't understand why they need to replace the proscenium statues with the awful-looking bare tour proscenium since it's a sit-down production, so I hope those remain. I fear for the fate of the Angel, which was Maria's favourite set piece and she previously vetoed its removal. Several Phantoms have said to me they have heard the powers-that-be want rid of it. At the moment my best hope is that the look and feel of the original is recreated with the tour sets, but using the original proscenium statues (perhaps minus the Angel). The 27-piece orchestra which I LOVE was always unusual for any West End/Broadway show, so I have doubts that will return. But I hope then that they use technology to give it a full sound, because I have seen productions where they used only 14 musicians and it sounded miserable. I believe Mackintosh was always planning this, and has decided that COVID is his perfect cover.

If they do use the tour sets, please for the love of God don't bring in those cheaper boxes or the cheap-looking flat instead of Maria's gorgeous drapes.

I would be VERY surprised if, as a poster above has suggested, the show goes into the Palladium. I think they'll just refurb HM's and put the watered-down touring version there. The show will not survive very long in the Palladium.

Updated On: 7/30/20 at 05:41 AM

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/20 at 6:31am

The Scorpion said: " I fear for the fate of the Angel, which was Maria's favourite set piece and she previously vetoed its removal. Several Phantoms have said to me they have heard the powers-that-be want rid of it."

What exactly is their problem with it (the powers that be, that is, not the Phantoms)?

[The Scorpion]

Posted: 7/30/20 at 7:25am

joevitus said: 

What exactly is their problem with it(the powers that be, that is, not the Phantoms)?"

I'm not really sure beyond economics. I think it takes a fair amount of work to maintain. Before the London production played its final performance before lockdown, its own Angel was out of action for quite a while. I've heard that the set as well was deliberately left to degrade for the last couple of years (no cleaning etc) because these plans have been bubbling for quite some time. I assume Cameron Mackintosh planned this at the same time he planned to scrap the original Les Mis, and by all accounts that was being planned as early as 2016.

The 2020 tour of Phantom did not include the Angel, but I can understand that if they feel it's no longer viable for touring productions. But the London production is a sit-down production, so IMHO there's no excuse not to have it.

[imeldasturn]

Posted: 7/30/20 at 7:34am

Andrew Lloyd Webber’s Really Useful Group has moved to quash reports that The Phantom of the Opera has closed permanently and has insisted the “brilliant original” will be returning to the West End.

RUG president Jessica Koravos told The Stage that reports that Phantom had closed permanently, based on an interview Cameron Mackintosh gave to the Evening Standard, were wrong, and that the show was only being closed to allow works to be carried out to both the show’s set and the theatre where it has been performed for 34 years.

She said the musical would return unchanged, using the work of the original creative team, including director Hal Prince and designer Maria Björnson, and added that when the show returns it will “indisputably be the longest-running musical in the West End”.

“What Cameron was meaning to say is, we have closed down the production entity that has been that [production of] The Phantom of the Opera for 34 years, and closed down the physical production. Even before the pandemic hit, we were already in a process of going carefully through the physical production, some parts of it already having been decommissioned,” she said, adding: “There are systems in that set you could not get the replacement parts for me any more – they just aren’t made after 34 years.”

 

From this article of The Stage

[KingOfTheMine]

Posted: 7/30/20 at 9:09am

I don't think this most recent press release really changes anything. It just sounds like ALW is trying to word the announcement so they can hold onto the title of longest running musical in the West End. I'm sorry, but they're making changes to the physical production and shutting down the legal entity that has been running the show for decades. Regardless of how similar ALW insists the show will be to the original, it will be hard to call this the brilliant original.