Older theatre fans: what's your opinion on new Broadway?

[borlechristian]

Hello! I'm a young theatre fan, and I've been venturing into listening to older musicals from the 60s, 50s etc. I've noticed many, many differences from musicals these days (Beetlejuice, Hamilton, mean girls, etc) to older musicals (Mame, guys and dolls, damn Yankees, etc)

What are your opinions on it? Do you think new Broadway is good or bad?

[Jordan Catalano]

Oh, god. I fear you’ve just summoned After Eight.

[HogansHero]

Jordan Catalano said: "Oh, god. I fear you’ve just summoned After Eight." 
 

Has it been around? I have not seen any posts recently.

[borlechristian]

Jordan Catalano said: "Oh, god. I fear you’ve just summoned After Eight.

"

Don't know who or what after eight is. Kinda scared

[Sutton Ross]

Just don't mention Fun Home to him and you should be fine!

[borlechristian]

I looked at some of his stuff on his profile. Seems like a troll, or some grumpy old man.

[qolbinau]

After Eight is the only person I know that appears to be able to quote every line and lyric from the shows he 'hates'. I hope he is ok! 

[BWAY Baby2]

I qualify as an older theatergoer- since I have been going to BWAY shows ever since I was 12 years old- back in 1965. I saw many musicals, Funny Girl, Flora The Red Menace, Skyscraper, The Apple Tree, Mame, Sweet Charity, Chicago- with Liza, Roar Of The Greasepaint...and so many others- and a few topical comedies- The Impossible Years was my fave- lots of drama- The Price, The Great White Hope, The Prime Of Miss Brodie...and on and on... and still see many shows now- Hamilton, Moulin Rouge, Iceman Cometh, Hadestown, Dolls House Pt 2, Side Show- and on and on...and I have to say- if you love theater- and it is a lifelong interest- you just go along with the times. Each decade reflect the times we live in to a degree- along with the revivals and theater pieces that are timeless and do not reflect any one particular social era. I love theater- and always have- and whether it was in the 60's, the 70's or 2020, I always try to pick stuff I like and hope I enjoy it. I love socially conscious theater- loved the original Torch Song Trilogy- Rent, Angels In Amerca, etc. but also loved The Inheritance and the plays that reflect our current times. 

 

 Why is there so much space here???

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[broadwayboy223]

I'm a young theatre fan (and MT major in college), and I have to say the most significant difference between now and then is that there's a lot more writing high notes for the sake of high notes, instead of it being driven by character insight or moving the plot forward. I know the tweens love Mean Girls and Heathers, but they are almost glorified belting competitions. That's just my opinion, though. There have been several great new musicals in the last twenty years-i'm not saying they are all poorly written. 

[SweetLips22]

borlechristian said: "I looked at some of his stuff on his profile. Seems like a troll, or some grumpy old man."

For a newbie you summed him up perfectly.

[ARTc3]

I too am an older theater goer who has seen hundreds of shows. I think there are a lot of wonderful recent shows. I am still amazed entertained and deeply moved by many of the shows I've seen in the past few years.

I will add one observation… there are always spectacles, even today, but I think 'big' (production value) musicals are less frequent.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Jordan Catalano said: "Oh, god. I fear you’ve just summoned After Eight."

Only if you stand in front of your mirror with only a candle and say Mary Sunshine three times.

[Jarethan]

There have always been great shows and clinkers.  Regardless of the decade.  That is certainly true since I started attending theatre pretty regularly in the mid-sixties.

I have to admit that, whenever subjects come up re 'your favorite musicals' or your 'favorite theatrical events' or 'your favorite productions of plays', I always seem to find myself listing things disproportionately from the 60s to 80s.  

Then I reflect that that was a period of (for me) Sondheim's greatest works; Jerry's Herman's greatest (if not as prolific in number) works; the single season in which Nine, Nicholas Nickleby and Dreamgirls all opened; Fiddler on the Roof, Man of La Mancha, Chicago, 1776, Cabaret, Hair and at the tail end, Les Mis and Phantom.  It was the period when we were introduced to the likes of Angela Lansbury (not really considered a theatre star before Mame), James Earl Jones, Patti Lupone, Bernadette Peters, Zoe Caldwell, and in which we saw Colleen Dewhurst and Jason Robards give two of the greatest performances I have ever seen on the stage in (a revival of) A Moon for the Misbegotten.

That does not mean that I have not loved shows since the 80s.  Among my all-time favorite shows are The Producers (certainly with Lane and Broderick), Hamilton, Moulin Rouge, Angels in America, the production of Long Day's Journey with Vanessa Redgrave, Slave Play.  I saw Hugh Jackman give one of the greatest musical comedy performances ever, in a thoroughly mediocre show.

In the final analysis, I think the biggest differences are:

-- The arrival of juke box musicals.  I have disliked many more than I have liked, and have been cheated out of original new scores.  MAJOR NEGATIVE FOR TODAY.

-- The rise in ticket prices exceeds anything I can think of in terms of inflation; and that does not even take into consideration premium prices.  If it is true that tourism is likely to be hit hard for a fairly extended period of time following re-opening (presumably with a vaccine or really excellent treatment), then I think ticket pricing is going to become a major issue.  Minus a significant number of tourists, will local theatregoers attend frequently enough, given prices?  MAJOR NEGATIVE FOR TODAY.

-- Easier access to theatre tickets.  I do not recall when it stopped, but for many years I had two ways to buy tickets, either by walking up to the box office WITH CASH or sending in a mail order with a self-addressed and stamped envelope and a check.  Didn't make it easy.  MAJOR POSITIVE FOR TODAY.

-- I assume the following is due to economics.  Decades ago, I seem to think that more productions opened per season, and a 'non-trivial' number of them were stinkers that had very short runs, many closing within a week of opening.  That meant that, particularly if you saw shows in (much shorter) preview periods, you probably saw more stinkers in a season than you do today.  Of course that gave some people bragging rights at having seen Moose Murders or Kelly of The Fig Leaves are Falling or Drat The Cat (which I loved).  NEUTRAL.

-- There were more plays that opened in open-ended engagements, which meant that -- if they were moderately successful -- you had a better chance to see them at a convenient time (I missed a number of limited engagement plays I really wanted to see because I was not in the NYC area while they were open) or multiple times, with some distance between viewings (which I always preferred).  MAJOR POSITIVE FOR EARLIER TIMES.

-- There were fewer revivals, particularly of musicals.  There were simply not a lot of revivals.  There was a revival of Annie Get You Gun, with Ethel Merman no less, that played 5 weeks in Lincoln Center, then transferred to the Broadway Theatre for a limited engagement, but did not even last the planned duration.  People wanted to see something new, and I do believe there were more new 'big' productions per season in earlier days, even if most of them flopped.  Think of all the great musical revivals in the past three decades...they would not have been revived in the 60s and very seldom in the 70s.  I don't know when it changed.  (The only real hit revival in those days was No No Nanette, but that was a pretty new show to most audiences, since it was 50 years old.  It was also an early hit based on the nostalgia focus.  MAJOR POSITIVE FOR TODAY (MAYBE).  As much as we have loved many of these revivals, how many of us would prefer that the investment had been made in a new musical instead.

[Someone in a Tree2]

Jarethan's thoughtful response above echoes a lot of my answers. I saw my first Broadway show in 1967, but Jarethan has QUITE a few years' head start on me seeing the classics back into the late 50's.

It's really easy to forget how many G*d-awful musicals opened each season during the so-called Golden Age amidst the handful of brilliant shows each year that we all remember. I actually feel the economics today mean that fewer pieces of drek make it onstage nowadays than in the 60's 70's and 80's-- it's just too expensive to mount them now. So Yay for the new crop!

My biggest disappointment (and it's fairly constant) with the newer crop of shows is the complete lack of interest in fashioning lyrics that actually rhyme. In the old days of Jerry Herman, Kander and Ebb, and Sondheim classics, the words simply weren't finished until everything snapped together with true correct rhymes. The last 20 years have seen a huge devaluing in the art of perfect lyric writing and I'm not only talking about MEAN GIRLS or SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS. There have been some brilliant shows I have hugely admired in the 21st century (BILLY ELLIOTT, SPRING AWAKENING, COME FROM AWAY, and recently HADESTOWN) that all seemed to turn their backs on the art form of the Golden Age in the way they treated lyric writing. 

It's a change that makes me ineffably sad.

 

[borlechristian]

broadwayboy223 said: "I'm a young theatre fan (and MT major in college), and I have to say the most significant difference between now and then is that there's a lot more writing high notes for the sake of high notes, instead of it being driven by character insight or moving the plot forward. I know the tweens love Mean Girls and Heathers, but they are almost glorified belting competitions. That's just my opinion, though. There have been several great new musicals in the last twenty years-i'm not saying they are all poorly written."

I definitely have to agree with this. When I've listened to older musicals, I notice their voice matches their character. If you have a fancy sorta character, they normally sing fancy high notes

With newer musicals, if you don't have a bunch of belting, then my mouth drops. 

 

In my drama club, I always see girls who try to show off all their belting (okay, me as well, but still) it's interesting

[Rumpelstiltskin]

I’ve been a theater nut since the age of the dinosaur and my appreciation for new works has grown with time.  I’ve always felt that the golden age of broadway is whatever age it happens to be.  Every season has something to recommend it.

The one thing I miss is the sheer wonder of seeing a show for the first time.  These days there’s no way to escape (nor do I try) the onslaught of information on shows leading up to the opening date.  When I see a show, I’ve already know the story and most of the songs.  I’ve read about all the behind the scenes drama.  I’ve followed all the conversation on these boards and start to believe that the well-thought-out opinions are mine.  And I’ve probably watched naughty videos on YouTube that tell me more than I wanted to know.  Going to the show sometimes feels like a confirmation of what I already knew.  (Yes, I know that it’s my choice to participate, but I suppose I have a character flaw that I can’t look away.)

Back in the old days (not so long ago), we would walk into a show knowing absolutely nothing.  It was magical.  I miss that.

Of course, we would also go on vacation without a cell phone (probably because they didn’t exist.)  I miss that too!  But that’s a topic for another thread.

[MCW1227]

Jarathen hit on many points for me.  I truly dislike the jukebox musicals with the exception of Beautiful and Jersey Boys which I thought were beautifully wrapped in great books as well as great music.  Most of them seem more appropriate for Vegas than Broadway.

I also miss the days when musicals were original works and great new plays were being written and produced specifically for theater.  I can do without the Disney productions and a lot of the pop culture movies being turned into Broadway shows.  That being said, shows like Hamilton, Hadestown, Dear Evan Hansen and Book of Mormon were shows that stayed with me for a long time.  I saw the original productions of Chicago, Annie, Evita and those are  shows that for their time were considered iconic and once in a lifetime experiences.  Shows like the Producers and Hamilton were like that as well.  
the beauty of theater is that it will always evolve with the times and I truly hope we will have those iconic shows that give audiences the same feeling as those I mentioned above.  
The costs of productions and cost of tickets have to be addressed as it excludes a vast majority of the population which is very unfortunate.  In order to keep live theater going, we have to expose it to a wider range of younger people and hope they are inspired to participate.  I would like to see more community theaters and repertory companies doing revivals and more original productions on Broadway. 

[Dollypop]

I catered the Virgin Mary's baby shower, I think I'm old enough to mention a few things here.

What I miss most is the good old Jewish showtune. COME FROM AWAY was a terrific show but after leaving the theater? I couldn't recall a single tune. I also enjoyed SPONGEBOB but found its eclectic score to be undistinguished and TOOTSIE's score was a letdown.

I'd love to hear a song as clever as "The Fugue For Tinhorns" or "Standing on the Corner" bring a scene to life. I wish I could hear a song like "Almost Like Being In Love" which joyfully captures the budding romance or "If Ever I Would Leave You"-'probably finest love song ever written.

Nowadays I find one song sounds just like the other--at least to me--and in the recent IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN YOU, they not only sounded the same but they touched on the same themes repeatedly

Broadway lost it's "sound", and it's lost the people who knew how to put together a show effectively.

[OlBlueEyes]

Most people grow attached to the music that they heard during their formative years, from preteen to young adult. I'm no exception to this. Someone, maybe Michael Feinstein, coined the phrase "Great American Songbook" to refer to the remarkable output of about a score of composers and lyricists, almost all first or second generation Jews who had emigrated to this country and this city of New York from Europe. The first generation Jews were usually fleeing the Russian pogroms or the Third Reich just in time.

The songs that they composed are still performed and recorded constantly by new artists. For example, George and Ira Gershwin's "Someone to Watch Over Me," written in 1926 and approaching its centennial, is still one of the very few top ballads performed and recorded by almost every popular vocalist. 

I will probably mess up with a few of these but in name I believe all of these were the Jewish composers and lyricists of whom I speak:  Richard Rodgers, Lorenz Hart, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Jerome Kern, Oscar Hammerstein II (half Jewish), Harold Arlen, Yip Harburg, Kurt Weill, Lerner and Loewe, Leonard Bernstein, Kander and Ebb, Jerry Herman. Cole Porter is the exception that proves the rule, whatever that means.

They wrote the songs that I know and love, and I will probably never be comfortable with the songs of others.

[lotiloti]

As an 'old fart' theatregoer. The three things I dislike about modern  Broadway are, with the odd exception (Jersey Boys) jukebox musicals. My main gripe is the Disneyfication of theatre, it's a sickly poison. There for no other reason, than to sell toys. Also the bizarre need for some members of the audience, who think it's ok to expect actors to indulge them at the stagedoor. You wouldn't do it for a plumber, who'd done a good job. Leave them alone, the are at work.

[sng]

I wanna comment on the cast recordings. I'm in my 20s and I find myself mostly listening to shows pre 2000s. I'm not saying the quality of the works has been decreased. It's just that nowadays modern shows use too much technology to make the songs so clean and perfect. When I listen to older cast recordings, they are raw, real, and loud just like in the theatre. For example, the Bette Midler's Dolly recording, they just completely sucked the soul out of the music.

[everythingtaboo]

I miss orchestras. Just just in terms of size, but also it seems like most musicals sound like a band, with heavy percussion and a pop feel. Where's a tune you can hum? Try humming Waving Through a Window and you'd pass out. 

[dramamama611]

I've been a fan since the late 60s and saw my for show ON B'way in the 70s. Just like always: there are shows I love, shows I don't and shows I have no interest in.  I'M more critical, because I'm more mature than I was in the 70s and 80s.   

I'll echo a lot of what has been said by others: I don't like jukebox musicals (even Jersey Boys and Beautiful); they bore me.  I think composers have become more concerned with creating smash songs than serving the character and I think more attention needs to be paid to the book.  

But, other than After8, none of us would hang out on this board if we still didn't have a passion for the art.

[Someone in a Tree2]

"Where's a tune you can hum? Try humming Waving Through a Window and you'd pass out. "

You might be right there, Taboo, but I thought "Requiem" from the same show was a gorgeous piece of composition. HADESTOWN is chock full of lovely hummable tunes, as is THE BRIDGES OF MADISON COUNTY. I think the great composers are still with us creating memorable new melodies, if you can just sift them from the dross.

[Jarethan]

sng said: "I wanna comment on the cast recordings. I'm in my 20s and I find myselfmostly listening to shows pre 2000s. I'm not saying the quality of the works hasbeen decreased. It's just that nowadays modern shows use too much technology to make the songs so clean and perfect. When I listen to older cast recordings, they are raw, real, and loud just like in the theatre. For example, the Bette Midler's Dolly recording, they just completely sucked the soul out of the music."

You triggered one that I forgot.  Most shows used to have real overtures.  That happens rarely these days.  I can think of two that had overtures (there are probably more).  One was The Producers, and that was almost 20 years ago.  Whether you loved or hated The Producers score, that overture was in the great tradition of older musical overtures.  Brassy, tuneful, exciting.  The only other one I can recall is Tootsie; as I listened to the overture, I started asking myself why they had an overture, since the tunes sounded lousy (which proved to be the case).  The overture was the perfect intro to the show, got you excited if done well.  In the old days, there were shows without overtures -- hell, as I recall, Dolly, Fiddler and Cabaret did not have them (and I always felt it was a mistake for Dolly).  But try to forget the greatness of the overtures to the Rodgers and Hammerstein scores, Anything Goes (from the 30s!), Mame, Funny Girl, Sweet Charity, Man of La Mancha, Coco, Dear World, Hallelujah Baby, The Happy Time, Chicago, Nine (incredibly different), My Fair Lady, Gigi, and etc.  And we all remember the overture to the Bartlett Sher revival of South Pacific...I can still remember the goose bumps raising in my arms...an overture to a show with great music (show tunes), great orchestrations, a real orchestra, and brilliant staging.

The other thought you triggered -- and it was alluded to in other posts -- was that there used to be something that you recognized as a show tune.  You could just tell...the melody, the orchestration, the voices just announced that this was a classic show tune.  (FYI, when I think of the perfect show tune, I think of a lushly orchestrated and beautifully sung 'I Have Dreamed'.  

Nowadays, even in excellent shows, I just don't get that feeling.  Even with scores I would acknowledge as excellent, I just can't listen to most of them the way I did with so many past OCRs.  I would used DEH as an example; I think the score is excellent, but I rarely listen to it; on the other hand, I listen to Bandstand regularly, because I love the score, the orchestrations, and the Broadway voices of Corey Cott and Laura Osnes.  Similarly, I enjoyed watching Waitress (although the first act is a slog, occasionally), but I have not been able to get through the OCR even once without skipping multiple songs.

The recent scores that I love the most are Hamilton and The Great Comet.  I suspect that TGC would have run for 10 weeks in 1960, and that Hamilton at the very least would have been ahead of its time, which usually translates into a commercial failure.  So, I am thankful that they are recent shows.