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Bootleg/Filming Shows Discussion - Page 2
Bootleg/Filming Shows Discussion
#25Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 11:14am
Other forms of entertainment can adapt, as Harris tweeted. Wasn't it the MLB that would try to take down twitter users' clips of games until they realized that if THEY put up a tiny clip of an amazing double-play or walk-off home run or something, then clips taken from a screen recorder wouldn't be a problem?
Granted, twitter/baseball aren't quite the same thing, but if you can get in front of an issue, then it's less work than causing industry angst and trying to issue cease-and-desists.
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
#26Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 11:15am
I've seen clips of obvious audience filmed videos from shows dating back to 1977 ("The King & I" w/Yul Brynnur & Constance Towers) and some from the 1980's which are surprisingly good. A few of these (such as "Rags" & "Legs Diamond"
will most likely never be revived again outside concert productions, so I did manage to watch the whole video without squirming. But as an avid theatergoer since childhood, I prefer to be there to see it live and capture every magical moment. I saw Annie & Mickey in the original "Sugar Babies" (on tour), and the audience filmed footage of the show is wretched, but in my mind's eye, I can recall every moment I saw live at the Pantages Theater.
For shows that are difficult to get tickets to, I don't even want to see clips before I actually see it live. Certainly the artists deserve to have their works protected, and I wouldn't want to be next to somebody obviously filming, although I'd be hesitant to make a disturbance. It's a tough call to make, and even artists disagree on what's right/wrong or ethical, etc. For the professionally filmed shows, they are entertaining, but as somebody who loves live performance, I just feel like the emotional element is missing when it's on a TV screen or computer rather than in the audience. Some people become shut-in's and anti-social because of Times Square crowds and audience behavior, and often, I'm upset by how people act, but you can't let one bad experience take away your passions. I'll watch it live, often 2 or 3 times, and if somehow, I get a copy of numbers or in a few cases, the whole show, I'll give it a perusal, but usually, they are nearly impossible to watch because of bad sound or photography, or angles that make the viewing experience claustrophobic.
One Grecian Ern
#27Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 11:27am
People become hermits because of midtown behavior? Really? I can see avoiding some Broadway shows (I've never seen a kid-centric show on Broadway for this reason, save Annie), but wholly shutting them out? Plus, there's off-Broadway.
I think you did touch on what's also not being discussed here — bootlegs of shows are enjoyed by many fans and potential fans would never have been able to see anyway. So they never would've been a potential audience member in the first place, whether they were living too far away, weren't born yet, didn't have the money, or a performance was a very limited run.
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
Fredrich Yeager
Understudy Joined: 4/14/19
#28Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 11:37am
Like people have said above, there's a BIG difference between people on cellphones during shows and bootleggers. Most people on cellphones are either responding to a text, or taking a photo or a short video of a certain part for posterity. Which I vehemently disagree with, but seeing as they did pay for their tickets and generally don't distribute those things, it's an entirely different subject. I've known "professional" bootleggers before (my job often requires me to interact with them) and with the actual good ones you would have no idea that they're filming. Professional bootleggers don't film with cell phone cameras. They don't post their videos to Youtube, they don't give out videos for free, and most of them also hate people who use phones in the audience because it increases their chances of being caught and also, if it is an amateur bootlegger, that's infringing on their business potential.
None of this contains any sort of value judgement on whether what they're doing is right or wrong, but let's at least get our facts straight and decide what we're debating on before we get into the morals of it.
#29Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 11:40am
Absolutely!
Even with the word "bootleg," people get confused. It used to mean audio. Now it seems to mean video more often than not.
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#30Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 11:44am
LizzieCurry said: "Other forms of entertainment can adapt, as Harris tweeted. Wasn't it the MLB that would try to take down twitter users' clips of games until they realized that if THEY put up a tiny clip of an amazing double-play or walk-off home run or something, then clips taken from a screen recorder wouldn't be a problem?
Granted, twitter/baseball aren't quite the same thing, but if you can get in front of an issue, then it's less work than causing industry angst and trying to issue cease-and-desists."
Two big differences: Shows release clips all the time - doesn't seem to change anything about bootlegging. But in sports - it's LITERALLY a once in a lifetime moment. Even when the two teams play the very next day it will not be the same. And it's part of a statistic.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
#31Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:01pm
yankeefan7 said: "Very simply, making a bootleg is stealing. A show gets created and to view that show you should pay for it. There are ways of getting cheaper tickets to Broadway shows (rush tickets and TKTS) for people on a budget and if you can't travel to NYC, there are regional tours across the country. Just because you may not have the financial means to see a show does not mean it is ok to steal money from the creators of the show. Like you said, there are plenty of other ways to experience art. NYC has plenty of museums and the admission ticket price is much less than the average Broadway ticket."
Exactly correct. It is stealing. Full stop.
CZJ at opening night party for A Little Night Music, Dec 13, 2009.
ellbellthomps
Leading Actor Joined: 11/15/17
#32Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:09pm
I think it's okay. I would never record video myself, but if it's already out there, what's the harm? I enjoy watching them when I know I won't be able to see the show.
Most people don't live close to NYC, and can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on a trip, but they still deserve to see the work of art.
I think audio recording is completely fine. I have never done it, but I totally would. I spent hundreds of dollars on this and if I want to hear the audio again, why not? It's not distracting anyone.
#33Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:12pmWhat do you mean by "if it's already out there"?
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
UncleCharlie
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/26/16
#34Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:17pm
ellbellthomps said: "I think it's okay. I would never record video myself, but if it's already out there, what's the harm? I enjoy watching them when I know I won't be able to see the show.
Most people don't live close to NYC, and can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on a trip, but they still deserve to see the work of art.
I think audio recording is completely fine. I have never done it, but I totally would. I spent hundreds of dollars on this and if I want to hear the audio again, why not? It's not distracting anyone."
The most overused word on this board "deserve". Those people you mentioned don't "deserve" anything other than enjoying something they've bought a ticket to see which does not include the right to record it in any form. Yet another case of entitlement run wild.
#35Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:25pm
Alex Kulak2 said: "most of the bootlegs I've watched have been from shows that are long closed. One of my favorite stagings of a musical is the 2005 revival of Sweeney Todd, which I've only seen through bootleg. If that bootleg didn't exist, that show would have disappeared forever."
I'm very grateful for the one, full-show bootleg of the original London production of Love Never Dies (which I flew to London to see a total of five times) because I will never have an opportunity to purchase a ticket to see Sierra Boggess sing that aria again.
I'm also very grateful for several bootlegs of both Glenn Close and Betty Buckley in the original Broadway production of Sunset Boulevard, because my life circumstances were such that I had never visited New York at the time the show ran. Consequently, and although I paid to see the recent Broadway revival five times, I will never have an opportunity to purchase a ticket to see either of those actresses descend that staircase in John Napier's fantastic mansion set.
"Michael Riedel...The Perez Hilton of the New York Theatre scene"
- Craig Hepworth, What's On Stage
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#36Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:26pm
oops
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
Updated On: 10/3/19 at 01:26 PM
ellbellthomps
Leading Actor Joined: 11/15/17
#37Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:28pm
LizzieCurry said: "What do you mean by "if it's already out there"?"
If someone else recorded it, (which i don't encourage), and its free, what's the harm?
dramamama611
Broadway Legend Joined: 12/4/07
#38Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:29pm
ellbellthomps said: "LizzieCurry said: "What do you mean by "if it's already out there"?"
If someone else recorded it, (which i don't encourage), and its free, what's the harm?
"
ellbellthomps said: "I think it's okay. I would never record video myself, but if it's already out there, what's the harm? I enjoy watching them when I know I won't be able to see the show.
Most people don't live close to NYC, and can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on a trip, but they still deserve to see the work of art.
I think audio recording is completely fine. I have never done it, but I totally would. I spent hundreds of dollars on this and if I want to hear the audio again, why not? It's not distracting anyone."
Because it's stealing. Because artists deserve to be paid for 'entertaining' you.
YOU don't deserve anything you don't pay for. You want to hear it again, BUY the recording. There isn't one yet? BooHoo.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it?
These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
ellbellthomps
Leading Actor Joined: 11/15/17
#39Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:30pm
The most overused word on this board "deserve". Those people you mentioned don't "deserve" anything other than enjoying something they've bought a ticket to see which does not include the right to record it in any form. Yet another case of entitlement run wild."
I respectfully disagree.
If some kid from across the globe loves theatre and they come across a bootleg, what's the problem?
90% of people can't afford to spend thousands of dollars to travel to new york.
ellbellthomps
Leading Actor Joined: 11/15/17
#40Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:33pm
Because it's stealing. Because artists deserve to be paid for 'entertaining' you.
YOU don't deserve anything you don't pay for. You want to hear it again, BUY the recording. There isn't one yet? BooHoo."
I agree, they totally deserve it. They're amazing. If I already paid to get in, and don't sell it/give it away what's the problem? Of course I'll buy the recording once it comes out.
I buy every recording, and if I enjoyed the show I'll see it again, regardless of whether or not there's a bootleg that I've seen.
#41Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:34pm
I think the new generation of theatre-goers we are seeing (speaking primarily about those on social media) have only harmed bootlegging with the constant entitlement and attention they bring to them. I genuinely do not believe this is a major issue now, and it wasn't when just about every major production was getting a bootleg a few years ago.
UncleCharlie
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/26/16
#42Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:39pm
ellbellthomps said "If some kid from across the globe loves theatre and they come across a bootleg, what's the problem?
90% of people can't afford to spend thousands of dollars to travel to new york."
Tough. They can find a form of entertainment they can afford. Every major city has theater. Attend that. The way you rationalize stealing the work of these artists in your mind is really something.
ellbellthomps
Leading Actor Joined: 11/15/17
#43Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:44pm
Tough. They can find a form of entertainment they can afford. Every major city has theater. Attend that. The way you rationalize stealing the work of these artists in your mind is really something."
My city doesn't have theater. Closest one is 6 hours away. I'm lucky to be able to go to New York a lot, but most don't have that luxury.
No matter where you live, theater isn't cheap.
If an avid theater fan who has no way to any theater stumbles across a bootleg, why not.
Also, I'm pretty sure that the point of this was to be civil.
It's my opinion, and I don't agree with yours either and thats OK.
#44Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:44pmWithout going into the "stealing" part of the entire bootleg universe, of course there are always gatekeepers when it comes to art. But who says because someone can't experience something that they MUST get to in some other way?
"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt
ellbellthomps
Leading Actor Joined: 11/15/17
#45Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 1:48pm
LizzieCurry said: "Without going into the "stealing" part of the entire bootleg universe, of course there are always gatekeepers when it comes to art. But who says because someone can't experience something that they MUST get to in some other way?"
You're right. You don't need to, and I know many people who are content not seeing a bootleg.
Some people do want bootlegs, I feel like it's more of an extra rather than something that people insist on. If they find it, they'll watch it. And if they don't, then so be it.
UncleCharlie
Broadway Legend Joined: 6/26/16
#46Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 2:29pm
ellbellthomps said: "Very vague. For all I know, you didn't have an option to see a bootleg.
Also, no ones running around whining. If there's a bootleg and you can't see it, watch it.
Some actors even support it (Ben Platt, my mother whos an actor... etc.)"
What's vague about it. The rules you agree to when you buy a ticket and the copyright laws say you can't do it. So you don't get to decide you can anyway. You don't get to roll thru a red light cause you don't see any other cars nearby and don't see any harm in doing so. As far as my ability to see a bootleg, I'm talking more generally about not being able to afford every possible thing I could want and accepting that and not thinking I had some inalienable right to those things anyway. That is after all, the point you're making, that people should be able to have whatever they want anyway even if the cost to buy it or experience it is too high for them, correct? As far as actors actually supporting it, tell them Uncle Charlie thinks they are fools.
#47Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 2:30pm
ellbellthomps said: Some people do want bootlegs,
Some people also want heroin.
CZJ at opening night party for A Little Night Music, Dec 13, 2009.
JSquared2
Broadway Legend Joined: 3/23/17
#48Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 2:40pm
RaisedOnMusicals said: "ellbellthomps said:Some people do want bootlegs,
Some people also want heroin.
Exactly -- although I think they can have as much heroin as they want --- at least they're only causing damage to themselves.
#49Experiment
Posted: 10/3/19 at 3:29pm
As has been noted several times, Bootlegs have been around forever.
It has been said that to appreciate the late Maria Callas fully, you had to hear her live, studio recordings never did her justice. Consequently there were many bootlegs of her performances that were widely distributed. Nowadays these recording are not only celebrated for their historical significance by preserving her thrilling performances but they are openly sold commercially. Time changes everything.
