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The Distinctive Baritone
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Slave Play#126
Posted: 12/22/19 at 4:09pm

poisonivy2 said:


First of all I'm a woman. And if a man is using his XY chromosomes to abuse and harass women it's absolutely fine for me to hate him for his abuse of power.

But I see we've gotten to the straw man part of the argument, where white people are so determined to convince themselves that there is indeed racism against white people that they say "but I need to get tan!!!!" As if getting a tan were anything close to the systematic racism and oppression inflicted upon POC by white people ...

Seriously board. Have you guys heard of Emmitt Till? George Stinney? Atatiana Jefferson? Tamir Rice? Botham Jean?
"

 

I appreciate the research you have clearly done on this subject, as well as the articles you linked to. However, in my opinion, whether or not non-white people can be "racist" towards white people is just semantics. There's no questioning the fact that a good part of world history consists of white people being terrible. However, whether we call it "racism" or "prejudice," disliking someone because they are white, or disliking white people in general is counter-productive and no better than "regular" racism. I think it's also important for everyone to remember - even in this hysterical age of Trump - that the average white person has ZERO power, and no interest in oppressing anybody. We are just trying to get by, the same as everyone else.

 

WhiteTwink
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Slave Play#127
Posted: 12/22/19 at 5:17pm

So I lost track of my account a long time ago but I had to remake an account to say: 

As a WHITE TWINK (lol) I really thought this "racism against white people" thing was only an argument I could have with my family that is currently up in arms about the impeachment, but damn... Do people not know the basics of being intersectional.... in 2019? On a theatre message board!? There's nothing inherently wrong with being ignorant about a subject but someone in this thread has been fervently trying to explain (with citations!) and y'all continue on, so it goes past ignorance.

Racism is systemic, any sociology class will tell you that. Especially in countries like America where the country is literally built on the dehumanization and exploitation of POC. It's plain and simple. If you're operating under a different definition of "racism" like, whatever, I think that fact still stands. White people are systemically favored, to say that isn't "fighting racism with racism." To deny it? Is embarrassing.

To say "I'm one of the good white people" is willfully obtuse, that's not the point, Jared/Chad/Tommy/Jennifer.  taking macro realities of society personally and LISTEN to marginalized voices. Not that all that was not already said. If you're offended you're again, missing the point. I guess that applies more to some people reacting to this play, less to people on this thread. 

Posionivy, sorry for all this effort you've put in trying to educate. I see your points and thank you. Thank goodness plays like Slave Play exist to create conversations like these. 

Updated On: 12/22/19 at 05:17 PM
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poisonivy2
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Slave Play#128
Posted: 12/22/19 at 5:39pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "poisonivy2 said:

I appreciate the research you have clearly done on this subject, as well as the articles you linked to. However, in my opinion, whether or not non-white people can be "racist" towards white people is just semantics. There's no questioning the fact that a good part of world history consists of white people being terrible. However, whether we call it "racism" or "prejudice," disliking someone because they are white, or disliking white people in general is counter-productive and no better than "regular" racism. I think it's also important for everyone to remember - even in this hysterical age of Trump - that the average white person has ZERO power, and no interest in oppressing anybody. We are just trying to get by, the same as everyone else.


"

Being white already has inherent power. You don;t have to abuse that power. I agree that most white people do not manifest or abuse that power. But being white means that no one will kick you out of Starbucks for buying a latte. Your chances of being killed by the police plummet. You'll be able to pick up a cab easily. You have a better chance of being approved for a loan or a mortgage. 

Have you ever been looked at funny at a bank? Probably not. There's a whole article in the NYTimes about racism in the banking industry:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/business/jpmorgan-banking-racism.html

Again I'm not saying that white people all abuse their power or are even aware of that power. Just that just by having light skin they have a certain amount of power and respect in U.S. society. 

The prejudice for light skin by the way is just as heavy in non-white societies. I'm Asian and can tell you that skin bleachening products are super-popular in Asian societies. Simply being white means you have a longer life expectancy, have better access to health care, greater chance of avoiding jail if arrested.

And thank you White Twink. 

Updated On: 12/22/19 at 05:39 PM
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hork
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Slave Play#129
Posted: 12/22/19 at 6:52pm

Now I'm really confused because I don't know who White Twink is arguing with. Like Baritone said, this is entirely a semantics argument. It's all so silly, really. Can't we use the word "racism" in the way it originally, actually means without someone throwing a hissy fit anymore?

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dramamama611
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Slave Play#130
Posted: 12/22/19 at 7:05pm
I really liked this. While Im not sure it says as much as it thinks it does (or maybe I missed something), I was fascinated the entire time. I thought the performances were outstanding and my mind was a whir of constant curiosity.

I look forward to getting copy of the script to delve back into it.




If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it? These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
WhiteTwink
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Slave Play#131
Posted: 12/22/19 at 7:21pm

I just think it's a odd semantical hill to die on. I think sometimes rhetoric shifts and language develops as a result; that's also not universal I suppose. For example, in my experience "racism" and "prejudice" has always had the distinction that racism implied systemic oppression, but if that's not what you encountered than it's not.

My original post was super pointed so my apologies. I'm not trying to argue, just read some things in this thread here and there that upset me. 

 

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forgetmenotnyc
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Slave Play#132
Posted: 12/22/19 at 7:48pm

I reactivated this thread BUT only dramamama611 IS TAKING ABOUT THIS PLAY!

Updated On: 12/22/19 at 07:48 PM
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dramamama611
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Slave Play#133
Posted: 12/22/19 at 7:55pm
Well, I tried.
If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it? These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
UncleCharlie
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Slave Play#134
Posted: 12/22/19 at 10:04pm

forgetmenotnyc said: "I reactivated this thread BUT only dramamama611 IS TAKING ABOUT THIS PLAY!"

I assume either you're being facetious that no one is talking about it or you played the Vegas over/under line on how many posts about the show would be made on this board, heavily bet the over and with the line set at 937, are still 20 or 30 posts light.

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The Distinctive Baritone
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Slave Play#135
Posted: 12/23/19 at 1:01am

The play is supposed to be really good. I look forward to seeing it out here in the regions. That said...(sorry, I just have to respond to those who responded to me)...

I know. We know. Anyone - white or non-white - who is a socially conscious adult knows all of this. The semantics of racism versus prejudice really became a thing a year or two ago, and the systemic racism by whites upon which the Western world is essentially built have been discussed at length since all of the Trump craziness started in like 2015, especially among all of us “woke” theater people. Do you read American Theatre magazine? That’s basically all they write about now. White people suck, especially white men. Especially straight white men. Especially straight white men over 50. They are THE WORST, am I right?

Look: prejudice is BAD. Racism (prejudice in regards to skin color) is BAD. America is designed by white privileged and built on the backs of POC and now the reckoning is upon us. However, I really do think we are heading towards change. It will probably take a century for any real progress to be made, but America (the civilized parts anyway) knows it has a problem. And isn’t that the first step to recovery?

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Slave Play#136
Posted: 12/23/19 at 12:25pm

White people never experience discrimination or prejudice. 

White Jews and LGBTQ have never experienced discrimination or prejudice?  I bet they'd be really surprised to learn that.

Therefore you cannot be racist against white people bc whiteness is the race to which all other races are measured and considered inferior by political systems and ruling classes. So therefore there is no such thing as racism against white people.

That's a very interesting way to re-define the word.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
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perfectlymarvelous
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Slave Play#137
Posted: 12/23/19 at 3:02pm

Of course white Jewish people and queer people have experienced discrimination. But not because of their race. That's the point, and you're being deliberately obtuse. Racism is prejudice plus power. This is something that is taught in basic level sociology classes, including the one I took more than 10 years ago as an undergraduate, so this discourse isn't as new as some of you seem to think it is. Just because *you* didn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't exist. 

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perfectlymarvelous
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Slave Play#138
Posted: 12/23/19 at 3:02pm

Of course white Jewish people and queer people have experienced discrimination. But not because of their race. That's the point, and you're being deliberately obtuse. Racism is prejudice plus power. This is something that is taught in basic level sociology classes, including the one I took more than 10 years ago as an undergraduate, so this discourse isn't as new as some of you seem to think it is. Just because *you* didn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't exist. 

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Slave Play#139
Posted: 12/23/19 at 4:44pm

Mister Matt said: "White people never experience discrimination or prejudice.

White Jews and LGBTQ have never experienced discrimination or prejudice? I bet they'd be really surprised to learn that.


this is such a disingenuous argument. You might have suffered personal discrimination but your ancestors did not suffer systematic oppression that was LEGAL and MANDATED in the constitution. To suggest it is the same is beyond obtuse. Besides wrre you ever not allowed to vote? Told to go to the back of the bus? Not allowed in restaurants and parks?

it is not the same.

 

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Slave Play#140
Posted: 12/23/19 at 5:15pm

poisonivy2 said: "Mister Matt said: "White people never experience discrimination or prejudice.

White Jews and LGBTQ have never experienced discrimination or prejudice? I bet they'd be really surprised to learn that.


this is such a disingenuous argument. You might have suffered personal discrimination but your ancestors did not suffer systematic oppression that was LEGAL and MANDATED in the constitution. To suggest it is the same is beyond obtuse. Besides wrre you ever not allowed to vote? Told to go to the back of the bus? Not allowed in restaurants and parks?

it is not the same.
"

Okay, I was with you, but to say that discrimination against LGBTQ+ people or Jewish people has never been legal is completely disingenuous. Like, the Holocaust was a thing, and the United States denied entry to Jewish refugees and others trying to flee Europe. Also, queer people can still get fired in many states in the US for being queer; we don't have equal protection under the law, and that's regardless of race. And like...yeah, white women weren't allowed to vote until 100 years ago, and even more recently for women of color. 

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DramaTeach
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Slave Play#141
Posted: 12/23/19 at 5:29pm

I'd say 6 million of a specific group of a people being exterminated over the course of a few years while American sat back and ignored it is pretty extreme hatred that that group has felt. They were also excluded from "white" activities although some people may consider them white today. Even with all of that, the number of anti-semitic acts has risen in the last couple of years. Unfortunately, many groups have experienced prejudice, hatred, and the acts that those lead to. I'd never diminish the struggles of the African American community, but it's not a competition, so why just focus on what they deal with instead of comparing?

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Slave Play#142
Posted: 12/23/19 at 5:40pm

Of course white Jewish people and queer people have experienced discrimination. But not because of their race. That's the point, and you're being deliberately obtuse. 

Actually no, I was not being deliberately obtuse.  You're just qualifying a ridiculously broad statement after the fact. If you meant to make a very specific statement, then perhaps you should have done so.

this is such a disingenuous argument. You might have suffered personal discrimination but your ancestors did not suffer systematic oppression that was LEGAL and MANDATED in the constitution. To suggest it is the same is beyond obtuse. Besides wrre you ever not allowed to vote? Told to go to the back of the bus? Not allowed in restaurants and parks?

it is not the same.

Who said it was "the same"?  You are so busy making knee-jerk assumptions to my response, it doesn't appear you bothered to notice it was a very concise and direct reply to a specific statement.  I wasn't making those comparisons nor was I saying that whites (as a race) have suffered the same levels of discrimination and prejudice as blacks (or more specifically, African Americans).  That would be a very careless thing to say.  I was saying that there are white people who have experienced discrimination and prejudice.  In the case of WWII, it was 6 million Jews at the hands of other white people known as the Nazi Party.  

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
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henrikegerman
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Slave Play#143
Posted: 12/23/19 at 5:48pm

That a character struggling intensely says or does something in the heat of passion that shocks us doesn't mean that the playwright is endorsing or condoning those words or conduct.

It just means they've written a shocking play.

In this case, a great one.

The characters of Slave Play are all good and decent people.  And they are all struggling intensely, some more than others, with a legacy of hate and oppression.  The evil on the stage - the virus - isn't personalized in any of the characters.  Instead, it's internalized in all of them. In all of us. The obstacle, the conflict and the inciting incident are all that legacy.  

Updated On: 12/23/19 at 05:48 PM
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Slave Play#144
Posted: 12/26/19 at 10:31am

hork said: "that's not how words work. You can't just decide on your own what they mean."

Try telling that to all the people who use the word "woke" as an adjective. wink

 

============> this board is a nest of vipers <============

"Michael Riedel...The Perez Hilton of the New York Theatre scene"
- Craig Hepworth, What's On Stage
Updated On: 12/26/19 at 10:31 AM
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Slave Play#145
Posted: 12/26/19 at 1:16pm

Lot666 said: "hork said: "that's not how words work. You can't just decide on your own what they mean."

Try telling that to all the people who use the word "woke" as an adjective.wink
"

Language evolves. Follow Merriam-Webster on Twitter, they are constantly updating the dictionary to reflect the growth of the language. Languages are built upon people making up words and deciding what they mean. Just because *you* don't like it doesn't make it invalid. 

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Slave Play#146
Posted: 12/26/19 at 2:36pm

perfectlymarvelous said: "Lot666 said: "hork said: "that's not how words work. You can't just decide on your own what they mean."

Try telling that to all the people who use the word "woke" as an adjective.wink
"

Language evolves. Follow Merriam-Webster on Twitter, they are constantly updating the dictionary to reflect the growth of the language. Languages are built upon people making up words and deciding what they mean. Just because *you* don't like it doesn't make it invalid.
"

Are you replying to me, or to the person who stated that "you can't just decide on your own what [words] mean"? I hope the latter, because that's precisely what "woke" people are doing.

============> this board is a nest of vipers <============

"Michael Riedel...The Perez Hilton of the New York Theatre scene"
- Craig Hepworth, What's On Stage
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Slave Play#147
Posted: 12/26/19 at 3:04pm

Lot666 said: "perfectlymarvelous said: "Lot666 said: "hork said: "that's not how words work. You can't just decide on your own what they mean."

Try telling that to all the people who use the word "woke" as an adjective.wink
"

Language evolves. Follow Merriam-Webster on Twitter, they are constantly updating the dictionary to reflect the growth of the language. Languages are built upon people making up words and deciding what they mean. Just because *you* don't like it doesn't make it invalid.
"

Are you replying to me, or to the person who stated that "you can't just decide on your own what [words] mean"? I hope the latter, because that's precisely what "woke" people are doing.
"

Both of you? Unless you're not being dismissive of people who use the word "woke" as an adjective and I'm reading your comments wrong. 

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Slave Play#148
Posted: 12/27/19 at 10:38am

perfectlymarvelous said: "Lot666 said: "perfectlymarvelous said: "Lot666 said: "hork said: "that's not how words work. You can't just decide on your own what they mean."

Try telling that to all the people who use the word "woke" as an adjective.wink
"

Language evolves. Follow Merriam-Webster on Twitter, they are constantly updating the dictionary to reflect the growth of the language. Languages are built upon people making up words and deciding what they mean. Just because *you* don't like it doesn't make it invalid.
"

Are you replying to me, or to the person who stated that "you can't just decide on your own what [words] mean"? I hope the latter, because that's precisely what "woke" people are doing.
"

Both of you? Unless you're not being dismissive of people who use the word "woke" as an adjective and I'm reading your comments wrong."

I'm saying that we can't have it both ways. hork wrote "that's not how words work. You can't just decide on your own what they mean.", and I pointed out that "woke" is a timely example of people doing just that.

============> this board is a nest of vipers <============

"Michael Riedel...The Perez Hilton of the New York Theatre scene"
- Craig Hepworth, What's On Stage
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Slave Play#149
Posted: 12/27/19 at 10:48am

Well, I meant it in the sense that one individual person cannot suddenly decide what a word means on his own (which is precisey what happened with the word "racism"Slave Play. Sure, other people adopted yet, and yes, it now has multiple meanings, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the original meaning still applies.