Tootsie controversy - Page 7

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 10:32pm

It's also weird how comedy and musical theater is often meant to relieve some painful truths through song, dance, and laughs. And if through these "woke" twitter rage campaigns you shut down art a and entertainment, you also shut down a way people (including trans/cis/any marginalized group) cope with life? 

I never liked the movie Tootsie, but I can see its appeal. Many people find themselves like Michael. Middle-aged, career hitting bumps, labeled "difficult" and "unemployable" by an industry. I'd imagine that Tootsie appeals to people who have had Michael's predicament. And it also appeals to people because Michael as Dorothy learns to be a better person by seeing the world through a different lens.

But sure, some penis jokes make it totally trans-phobic and the show deserves a hate campaign and no one in the show should ever work again. 

[InTheBathroom1]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 10:38pm

There are ways to have entertainment that is still funny and politically conscious. Those two things do not need to be mutually exclusive

Also, Michael is a dick. Period. He is not a sympathetic character or likeable in many ways. So if people find themselves in Michael’s situation it’s because they got themselves there.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 10:59pm

I don't think Tootsie is worth lobbing a hate campaign against, and, again, what's actually been lobbed seems like next to nothing - there've probably been, in this thread, more words of outcry against the outcry than there have been actual words of outcry. Show me someone who isn't a worked-up twitter user who actually thinks that "nobody in this show should ever work again". What I'm seeing much more of is an outrageously reductive reaction of panic towards any actual conversation about these issues, and I can't figure out where that comes from - it always surprises me how excited people around here to toss the phrase "PC", et al.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/12/19 at 11:03pm

InTheBathroom1 said: "There are ways to have entertainment that is still funny and politically conscious. Those two things do not need to be mutually exclusive

Also, Michael is a dick. Period. He is not a sympathetic character or likeable in many ways. So if people find themselves in Michael’s situation it’s because they got themselves there."

You do realize that the character of Michael is heavily based on Dustin Hoffman right? Dustin Hoffman was a middle-aged actor in Hollywood who had acquired a reputation for being "difficult" (read: prick). The ways Michael got fired from movies was similar to ways Hoffman found himself fired. Dustin Hoffman had gone through a bitter divorce and many failed relationships just like Michael. 

So basically this movie was a meta-movie where a difficult actor who often had issues keeping jobs and relationships plays ... a difficult actor who had issues keeping jobs and relationships. One of the jokes about the movie Tootsie was that an A-list actor like Dustin Hoffman/Michael would have found it a real pay drop to go to daytime soaps. The musical adaptation by making Michael a Broadway actor doesn't get this pay/prestige drop factor.

But there was nothing transphobic about the creation of the movie. It was a semi-biographical fantasy where the actor plays a version of himself.

Maybe all this has been lost from screen to stage. But whatever the case, there is nothing transphobic about the source material. 

[ChairinMain]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 1:18am

I mean....there is a WHOLE conversation to be had about how the film's depiction of the art of cross-dressing differs by necessity from the musicals' because the film exists in a time before trans visibility was part of the national conversation and the musical does not, but man is that a conversation I don't want to start right now. 

Updated On: 6/13/19 at 01:18 AM

[blaxx]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 3:42am

ChairinMain said: "I mean....there is a WHOLE conversation to be had about how the film's depiction of the art of cross-dressing differs by necessity from the musicals' because the filmexists in a time before trans visibility was part of the national conversation and the musical does not, but man is that a conversation I don't want to start right now."

But it's true. I still remember when the movie came out, and how everyone was wowed by Hoffman's acting during the big reveal. Back then, we barely placed focus on gender or identity matters; the main character's actions and intentions came from a very different place.

Let's be honest, the producers just want to capitalize on nostalgia. This is about trying to profit on people's memories, no one was asking for a musical version of this film; the same way most 80's and 90's films to musicals fail miserably.

Someone thought: recognizable 80's film title +drag + cheap laughs = $$$

I bet it still closes without recouping its investment. 

[n2nbaby]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 9:02am

As someone who did NOT enjoy Tootsie, this is one of the most ridiculous, overblown “controversies” I’ve ever seen. If the show fails, it isn’t because BWW and Twitter are angry because literally nobody besides us knows about the controversy.

There is NOTHING in Tootsie about being trans. Nothing. Do we all of a sudden think that all men dressing as women are transphobic? Get outta here.

[n2nbaby]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 9:06am

Also, it’s been ten years but we finally have a thread as ridiculous as the “Alice Ripley is homophobic!” thread.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 9:52am

I mean, one of the points of conversation when discussing how trans lives and popular media intersect is how many people do conflate man-in-dress with being trans, often negatively. There’s this cultural image that a trans person is a dude wearing a dress for nefarious reasons, or who looks like an idiot but doesn’t realize it, or who just looks like an ugly woman (that a character then falls for, and the humor is in waiting for him to realize the woman he’s fallen for actually has a dick - gross!!).

Like, that’s the joke for a lot of people, and when you have guys in dresses in media, you do have think, you know, what am I telling people about guys in dresses? Because the fallout of the “trap” gag is pretty widespread and impacts the lives of actual trans people, because a lot of people’s image of what a trans person is comes from sitcoms and stand-up and talk radio.

Again, what actual “controversy” there is here I’m not really sure, but this is a great conversation to have and it concerns me that people are so anxiously stubborn to not have it.

[Zion24]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 10:02am

Charley Kringas Inc said: "Again, what actual “controversy” there is here I’m not really sure, but this is a great conversation to have and it concerns me that people are so anxiously stubborn to not have it."

I think what you're describing as anxiously stubborn is a reaction to an ACCUSATION. A conversation about men in drag, how that correlates with modern feminism/trans awareness, bring it on. But this entire discussion has been framed by those accusing Tootsie (and its actors!) of transphobia- which shuts down a conversation. Not sure that deserves anything but stubborn rejection. 

[NYadgal]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 10:18am

“Being a woman is no job for a man”   I’d wear that t-shirt.  

This feminist supports the LGBTQ+ community with every fiber of my being.   And I also support the need for women to declare our strength in an era when our rights and bodies are also being attacked on a daily basis.  (All women - trans or cis)

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 10:21am

Why can’t the conversation spring from the elements of the accusation? I (obviously) don’t agree at all with attacking the actors but what elements of Tootsie do play into transphobic narratives? I feel like there’s also some confusion about intent versus message - you don’t have to set out to tell a story with transphobic elements to tell a story with transphobic elements.

But I know that hot internet debates don’t usually slow down for those shades of gray. We log in to get angry, spray bullets, and then peel out, and it’s hard to shake that impulse.

[LarryD2]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 10:41am

Charley Kringas Inc said: "Why can’t the conversation spring from the elements of the accusation? I (obviously) don’t agree at all with attacking the actors but what elements of Tootsie do play into transphobic narratives? I feel like there’s also some confusion about intent versus message - you don’t have to set out to tell a story with transphobic elements to tell a story with transphobic elements.

But I know that hot internet debates don’t usually slow down for those shades of gray. We log in to get angry, spray bullets, and then peel out, and it’s hard to shake that impulse."

I don't think anyone is saying a conversation can't happen.

What a lot of people are saying -- accurately -- is that the loudest voice in this conversation (the American Theatre article and its writer) are willfully spinning the facts to fit a predestined narrative. And you can't have a meaningful conversation with someone who is arguing in bad faith.

Also, based on what I've seen on social media, the majority of people who are against this show don't really seem interested in dialogue -- they only want to have their worldview affirmed.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 11:14am

I mean, we don't have to talk about them. Their reactions are pertinent in terms of how the structure of the internet leans towards being provocative - you want people to talk about you, because when they talk about you you get clicks and likes and, if you're writing articles, ad revenue. A lot of the American Theater article doesn't scan for me (he starts one paragraph by suggesting that drag is meant to "queer gender" and show that gender is a performance, and then ends it by stating that Tootsie treats drag and gender as a joke - so what exactly does he believe drag and gender to be?), but raising the question of how trans people can and often are the butt of a joke (the "silent spectre" in Tootsie is a great thing to discuss.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/13/19 at 1:10pm

I do think it's a valid conversation to have. It's been a couple years but I remember being uncomfortable with a character in Beardo where the main joke seemed to be that this male character was in a dress. Sometimes elements of a story can have unfortunate implications and be received differently by different audience members. 

I don't feel equipped to talk about Tootsie because I haven't seen it. I do think unintended implications are in a gray area. It's different from whitewashing or something that has a blatantly, intentionally transphobic message (for example, if Ricky Gervais was performing his recent standup special on Broadway). With Tootsie, you can hear what people who feel hurt by the production have to say but it's still a matter of opinion... not a reason for anyone who feels like an ally to join a boycott. Strongly agreeing or disagreeing with one side or the other without having seen the show isn't having a conversation. It's just taking sides. 

[book of hamsettos]

Posted: 7/29/19 at 2:39pm

woeisme3 said: "I agree that it’s a weird thing to advertise, but definitely not intentionally hateful and the logic seems like a reach. Trans women are actual women and do saying the shirt is transphobic seems like a weird step backwards. I think the “Friend of Dorothy” shirt is hilarious and not offensive in anyway. It’s kind of a nothing controversy imo."

i personally dont understand whats wrong with the “friend of dorothy” shirt tbh but saying “being a woman is no job for a man” is basically completely derogatory towards cis male drag queens (particularly fem ones). its not really a controversy so much as being a transphobic, bigoted, sexist show that is offensive towards the art of drag 

 

Updated On: 7/29/19 at 02:39 PM

[EllieRose2]

Posted: 7/29/19 at 3:02pm

Yet people are enjoying it. If art offends you, don't support it. Easy. 

[FranklinDickson2018]

Posted: 7/29/19 at 3:05pm

i personally dont understand whats wrong with the “friend of dorothy” shirt tbh but saying “being a woman is no job for a man” is basically completely derogatory towards cis male drag queens (particularly fem ones). its not really a controversy so much as being atransphobic, bigoted, sexist show that is offensive towards the art of drag

 

Um did we see the same show?  Good lord almighty.  People are just looking to be offended.  I don't even know what "cis male drag queen" means, and I am happy to never have to learn.  What I am happy about is that I saw this delightful warm and funny show......  Does this make me some kind of terrible person? 

"

 

[EllieRose2]

Posted: 7/29/19 at 3:23pm

NO! I love this show and so did my entire party. People need to be offended by every little thing these days and PROCLAIM IT all over the internet. It's incredibly obnoxious. Just ignore them, live your life, and love what you love!

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 12:09am

TheBroadwayBubble said: "There was some controversy on social media this weekend over some of Tootsie's merchandise, specifically- that some thought it was offensive to the trans and gay community. Some of the merchandise has been taken down, but one shirt still remains up- the shirt says "Friend of Dorothy," and the other shirts/bags/stickers/pins all said "Being a woman is no job for a man." Thoughts everyone?"

HUGE sidebar, but I just want to point out that no gay man ever called himself or others a "Friend of Dorothy" as an out gay man (now 50), the only two times I've ever heard this phrase was from a (heterosexual) character in Clueless and Milo Yiannopoulos. This is pseudo gay culture, folks. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 12:46am

Rogerdellibovi said: "This thread made me google the pretty woman merch and jfc.....have all marketing people for broadwaymusicals lost their minds? For those curious, the pretty woman merch says "Bold woman, fierce woman, funny woman, strong woman, pretty woman". Perhaps this is the inverse of Tootsie, okay out of context but quite bad in context (to Tootsie's okay in context not quite out of context)."

I can't for the life of me figure out what's wrong with this. A bold, fierce, funny, strong woman can't be pretty? A pretty woman can't be bold, fierce, funny, strong? It reads like a great message to me. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 12:57am

DoTheDood said: "I think one of the things some trans folks would find frustrating about Tootsie is not the just the drag, but the lack of shows about trans people out there. I'm not against a farce about drag, but then there should be more up to date plays and musicals about queer people. We have a good number of shows about gay men, but not many outside a gay male view. Again we should totally have male queer shows and shows about drag, but hopefully some shows/characters in shows outside of that too."

Yeah, but how do you satisfy anyone anymore? When Laverne Cox did Rocky Horror, she talked about how the term the term "transsexual" is offensive in the trans community. I mean, what show is more forward thinking/all embracing about sexuality and gender identity/fluidity than Rocky Horror? And people are going to have issues over a word? From a piece written in 1973? 

To me, this kind of thing makes me feel "Why bother, if everything is ultimately not going to pass the p.c. test? Everything is gong to 'problematic' eventually?"

I'd also say, considering the more than 100 years of musical theater it took to get a few drag/gay shows up and running, that we don't have more lesbian shows or trans shows is hardly surprising. I'd love to see shows for all kinds of people with all kinds of identity, but it just isn't surprising we don't, and I find it odd that Tootsie should have to bear the burden of issues it doesn't even raise. I guess the same thing would happen to Sugar! if it were revived now. Maybe more so because of Osgood.

[Sho-Tunes-R-Us]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 12:59am

joevitus said: "TheBroadwayBubble said: "There was some controversy on social media this weekend over some of Tootsie's merchandise, specifically- that some thought it was offensive to the trans and gay community. Some of the merchandise has been taken down, but one shirt still remains up- the shirt says "Friend of Dorothy," and the other shirts/bags/stickers/pins all said "Being a woman is no job for a man." Thoughts everyone?"

HUGE sidebar, but I just want to point out that no gay man ever called himself or others a "Friend of Dorothy" as an out gay man (now 50), the only two times I've ever heard this phrase was from a(heterosexual) characterin Clueless and Milo Yiannopoulos. This is pseudo gay culture, folks."

Gay History 101:

Before our liberated days (I'm 71) in order to meet other gay men on ocean cruise ships it was quite common for men to post  "Friends of Dorothy, please meet for cocktails at five in the starboard lounge" on the ship's daily activity log.

You're such a youngster.  Lol.

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:00am

No, they really didn't. And if you can point to one historical artifact that supports it, I'd love to see it. You're talking to a guy obsessed with queer history and culture here. Obsessed with etymology of gay slang and the history of its development. Didn't happen. Pretty sure phrase was invented around 1993. Unless it's something that was big in other countries and their sailing vessels, not the US (I don't know EVERYTHING).

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 01:00 AM

[DoTheDood]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:27am

joevitus said: "Yeah, but how do you satisfy anyone anymore?When Laverne Cox did Rocky Horror, she talked about how the term the term "transsexual" is offensive in the trans community. I mean, what show is more forward thinking/all embracing about sexuality and gender identity/fluidity than Rocky Horror? And people are going to have issues over a word? From a piece written in 1973?"

As both cis people (assuming you are cis, correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't think we can decide what is offensive for the minority we are not in. That's like straight people disagreeing with a gay person about the gay f-word being offensive, they really shouldn't have a say in it? And I love Rocky Horror, but it's also very out-dated compared to how the trans community is today. I think it did start gender fluidity representation, but the fact it had to present the people defying the norm of gender as literal aliens that want to bone 24/7, it doesn't speak to how current day trans people only want to be represented. Rocky Horror can still exist obviously, but there should be more modern shows about/written by actual trans people.

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 01:27 AM