Tootsie controversy - Page 2

[binau]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 3:08pm

everythingtaboo said: ""Being a woman is no job for a man." Like, I don't even know how it could be considered transphobic. It wouldn't matter if a trans female saw that because they don't consider themselves a man anyway, right? Is this just some tweet-happy teenager overreaching?"

I assume it's because they claim it implies a biological male could never ever be a woman. Taking what is likely what I assume to be a feminist phrase and taking it out of context to mean something it doesn't.

[Rainah]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 3:38pm

It was a poor decision to make that tje marketing phrase. I'm sure it's innocent, but part of marketing is how will it look to people on the street? How will it look out of context? Can it be misunderstood?

Reminds me of a friend showing me a proof of his upcoming show. I told him the curtain looked like a certain piece of female anatomy. He didn't intend that, but it doesn't change the fact that a portion of the people we was marketing to will get that message.

It looks bad out of context and I'm sure there are many equally good lines for merch.

[Rogerdellibovi]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 3:44pm

qolbinau said: "everythingtaboo said: ""Being a woman is no job for a man." Like, I don't even know how it could be considered transphobic. It wouldn't matter if a trans female saw that because they don't consider themselves a man anyway, right? Is this just some tweet-happy teenager overreaching?"

I assume it's because they claim it implies a biological male could never ever be a woman. Taking what is likely what I assume to be a feminist phrase and taking it out of context to mean something it doesn't."

But how is this even a feminist phrase? “Being a woman is no job for a man” is just... a fact. There is actual feminist media out there and tootsie (the musical) ain’t it. 

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 3:56pm

Rogerdellibovi said: "But how is this even a feminist phrase? “Being a woman is no job for a man” is just... a fact. There is actual feminist mediaout there and tootsie (the musical)ain’t it."

The implication of the phrase is that it's hard being a woman and men couldn't handle it. 

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 4:25pm

Rainah said: "It was a poor decision to make that tje marketing phrase. I'm sure it's innocent, but part of marketing is how will it look to people on the street? How will it look out of context? Can it be misunderstood?

Reminds me of a friend showing me a proof of his upcoming show. I told him the curtain looked like a certain piece of female anatomy. He didn't intend that, but it doesn't change the fact that a portion of the people we was marketing to will get that message.

It looks bad out of context and I'm sure there are many equally good lines for merch."

I stopped off at merch when I saw it. Twice. Saw two women buying the shirt. They got it. Just because a certain segment of people don't like it doesn't mean it is wrong. They evidently don't understand the meaning so the rest of us, who do, shouldn't have to now not be able to buy the shirt because they jumped on social media and complained.

 

Updated On: 4/8/19 at 04:25 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 4:53pm

The evidently don't understand the meaning so the rest of us, who do, shouldn't have to now not be able to buy the shirt because they jumped on social media and complained.

Or you could just buy something else.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 5:05pm

Or you could just buy something else.

If someone wants to buy the merch, I think they're perfectly capable of choosing what (if anything) they want to purchase. Hats off to them for taking the (humorous) shirt at face value and not trying to read anything offensive into it when there is so much surrounding us that we could - and should - be using that outrage for.

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 5:05pm

Mister Matt said: "The evidently don't understand the meaning so the rest of us, who do, shouldn't have to now not be able to buy the shirt because they jumped on social media and complained.

Or you could just buy something else."

Well, that choice has already been made for them...

[Impossible2]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 5:09pm

Humanity has finally lost the plot...

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/8/19 at 6:27pm

Well, that choice has already been made for them...

They could also choose to not buy anything at all.  The merchandising team has always controlled the choices of what anyone buys for any show in the first place.

there is so much surrounding us that we could - and should - be using that outrage for.

Like the loss of a t-shirt option?

Here's the thing...the outrage stems from how easily the line could be taken out of context, when it is displayed completely out of context, as leverage for anti-trans activists.  The marketing team realized this and thought it in the best interests of the show and the trans community to not distribute it any further.  They probably envisioned a bunch of MAGA-hat bigots wearing shirts with that sentence holding "Get the trannies out of MY bathroom" signs (or something equally offensive and ignorant) and thought it looked like something Faux News would use as a screaming headline stating that BROADWAY was being HYPOCRITICAL because TOOTSIE THE MUSICAL sold TRANSPHOBIC T-SHIRTS.  Because sad as it is, these days, that scenario is ENTIRELY PLAUSIBLE.  But if one needs to wear that specific phrase on their clothing, they can print it on their own t-shirt (for probably a fraction of the cost).  Problem solved.

But God forbid collectors don't get the shirt they saw but didn't buy, but might want to buy later because...I don't know.  For whatever reason, Rent stopped selling the fantastic Today 4 U t-shirt shortly after it won the Tony and it never emerged again (the Will You Light My Candle T-shirt stuck around for a few months more, however).  I didn't get the chance to buy it and somehow, I survived.  I was ROBBED of my choice even if I never knew the reason why and I completely forgot to be angry about it.  I guess people are only angry about this because they know the reason why, but it isn't a good enough reason for them.  Or something.

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 9:30am

Mister Matt said: "Here's the thing...the outrage stems from how easily the line could be taken out of context, when it is displayed completely out of context, as leverage for anti-trans activists."

Because if there is one thing TERFs and others really needed, it was a Broadway music to crystalize their message for them, and give them an easy way to spend $40 to put trans women in their place?!

Not to mention that you need to misinterpret the line to even get there, since "being a woman is no job for a man" doesn't even make any sense, unless you skip over the "job" part.

I can't quite imagine needing Tootsie merch at all, but this will probably be the hot ticket item at the Flea Market, unless they had them all burned.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 11:02am

Because if there is one thing TERFs and others really needed, it was a Broadway music to crystalize their message for them, and give them an easy way to spend $40 to put trans women in their place?!

Is that what I said?  No, it's not.  They don't "need" it any more than musical theatre fans "need" it.  

Not to mention that you need to misinterpret the line to even get there, since "being a woman is no job for a man" doesn't even make any sense, unless you skip over the "job" part.

Right.  That assumes the application of logic and reason.  The opposite of what I described as the potential issue.   Here...I'll post it again for clarity:

The marketing team realized this and thought it in the best interests of the show and the trans community to not distribute it any further.  They probably envisioned a bunch of MAGA-hat bigots wearing shirts with that sentence holding "Get the trannies out of MY bathroom" signs (or something equally offensive and ignorant) and thought it looked like something Faux News would use as a screaming headline stating that BROADWAY was being HYPOCRITICAL because TOOTSIE THE MUSICAL sold TRANSPHOBIC T-SHIRTS.  Because sad as it is, these days, that scenario is ENTIRELY PLAUSIBLE. 

Now, if you think this is something these folks would never do, then just say so and maybe add something to support your theory.  Because there is unlimited evidence that what I described isn't really far-fetched at all.  Regardless, the point is moot because the marketing team realized their mistake and corrected it in the best interest of the show, which really isn't a terrible thing.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 11:24am

This entire situation is much ado about nothing.

In fact, this entire thread is a whole lot of sound and fury, which ultimately signifys nothing. Except virtue signalling.

[haterobics]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 12:39pm

Mister Matt said: "Now, if you think this is something these folks would never do, then just say so and maybe add something to support your theory. Because there is unlimited evidence that what I described isn't really far-fetched at all."

I think it is something they would never do AT A BROADWAY MUSICAL. Out in the wild? Sure.

There is no evidence, aside from one crazy MAGA hat guy who seemingly waits all the way until the curtain call to stand up and yell about Trump, of people using Broadway theaters as protest venues. Or co-opting awkward show marketing slogans as platform positioning.

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 12:51pm

Mister Matt, the real sad thing is that it is looked at as "a mistake".

[BritCrit]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 1:20pm

A lot of the frustration on Twitter seems to come from people who regard the whole project as inherently transphobic. I feel like this is an overreaction, but it is a valid concern when you are doing a story about a man disguising himself as a woman for personal gain. Tootsie has precisely nothing to do with the world and stories of the Trans community, but I can see why they feel concerned about a project like this, and the flippant foolish tone of the merchandise is incredibly insensitive. 

I feel like there should be some trans involvement with a story like this. I accept that Tootsie is rooted in the traditional gender binaries, but if you are doing a story about a man living as a woman and experiencing the female world, their experience can provide some much needed authenticity. The merchandising scandal has merely created frustration and ensured that a small but vocal minority are actively rooting for Tootsie to fail ... NEVER a good thing...

(P.S I couldn't care less about the movie, but I like Santino Fontana!)

Updated On: 4/9/19 at 01:20 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:03pm

I think it is something they would never do AT A BROADWAY MUSICAL.

Buy a T-shirt?  They can do that at the show or on a website.

Mister Matt, the real sad thing is that it is looked at as "a mistake".

Perhaps, but what happened to Great Comet was even sadder.  Just the perception of a show's image can have a huge effect on the fate of the show itself.  While this isn't exactly the same situation, the social media rumblings of merchandise using a quote that could be found offensive when viewed out of context is something that should be considered.  If Kiss Me Kate sold a bunch of I HATE MEN merchandise (and perhaps they are...I don't really know), we could be having the same discussion about that as well.

[BritCrit]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:10pm

Mister Matt said: "If Kiss Me Kate sold a bunch of I HATE MEN merchandise (and perhaps they are...I don't really know), we could be having the same discussion about that as well."

A better analogy would be if Pretty Woman put out merchandise glamorizing (or appearing to glamorize) prostitution... 

[BroadwayBen]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:23pm

There is nothing about Tootsie that is transphobic.    That, I'm sorry, is ridiculous.  

[uncageg]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:29pm

Thank you Ben! And if they have such a problem with it, why haven't they already gone after the movie, which has been around for years?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:36pm

There is nothing about Tootsie that is transphobic.    That, I'm sorry, is ridiculous. 

Thank you Ben! And if they have such a problem with it, why haven't they already gone after the movie, which has been around for years?

I thought this was about a particular phrase printed on merchandise.  Did I miss an entirely different conversation or are we just pretending there has been no discussion at all?

[BritCrit]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:51pm

Mister Matt said: "There is nothing about Tootsie that is transphobic. That, I'm sorry, is ridiculous.

Thank you Ben! And if they have such a problem with it, why haven't they already gone after the movie, which has been around for years?

I thought this was about a particular phrase printed on merchandise. Did I miss an entirely different conversation or are we just pretending there has been no discussion at all?"

It's mostly about the merchandise, but as I pointed out, many of the loudest detractors on Twitter are opposed to the whole concept of a man dressing as a woman to advance his own career. This criticism covers the original film as well, but awareness of trans issues and trans suffering is far greater in 2019. Again, I think it is ridiculously over the top to argue that Tootsie is transphobic, but I can see why some more militant people are frustrated by it. Most of us can make the distinction between a frivolous comedy about cross dressing and the actual life and experiences of the trans community, but it only takes one foolish viewer to create misery...

[BritCrit]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:53pm

This is not to say that I agree with this argument, but i see it a lot on Twitter and understand why its being made. And yes, the merchandise was not a good idea...

[Niles Silvers]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 2:57pm

I seem to recall that the trans activists were claiming at one time that no one should be allowed to dress in drag, as it is somehow an affront to them.  I realize that they are angry, but that is probably not a good road to take if cooperation with the gay community is a goal.  Of course, for many that doesn't seem to be a goal.  

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 4/9/19 at 3:00pm

A better analogy would be if Pretty Woman put out merchandise glamorizing (or appearing to glamorize) prostitution...

Is there a specific line of text you're thinking of that would be taken out of context to have a different meaning than in the show?  I mean, that's what this is about, not the show's message or plot.  I mean, I find the phrase merchandise for Pretty Woman to be cringey for a variety of reasons, but it has to do with the text in relation to the show's plot and message.  It's the exact opposite situation to the Tootsie discussion.