Oriental Theatre in Chicago will get a name change!

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 11:54am

I love the oriental theatre, but the name has always been a bit.... The new name isn’t much fun, though.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/theater/ct-ent-oriental-nederlander-change-1114-story.html

Updated On: 11/13/18 at 11:54 AM

[InTheBathroom1]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 12:04pm

At least it’s not being renamed Bank of My Butt Theatre or whatever like the other ones in Chicago.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 12:04pm

Aw man, there goes the #orientalattheoriental hashtag I liked to use in selfies.

[Kad]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 12:27pm

LizzieCurry said: "Aw man, there goes the #orientalattheoriental hashtag I liked to use in selfies."

I guess you'll need to reorient yourself.

 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 1:29pm

Boo, I can no longer claim this as “my” theatre. Ah well, happy for the change. It’s been an awkward name for quite some time.

[BalconyClub]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 1:37pm

Will the marquee end up at the Chicago History Museum, the Art Institute of Chicago, or the Museum of Science and Industry?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 1:38pm

At least it won't be changing names every year like the Shubert.

[bk]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 2:38pm

When will they change the name of Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express?  May as well change everything while we're at it.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 2:41pm

Good idea. How about Murder on the Starlight Express?

[Someday]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 3:03pm

For the win. And yes, I’d pay to see that.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 3:07pm

Oh! Only 7 replies until someone came in to demonstrate how hard it is to change with the times!

[carnzee]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 3:33pm

bk said: "When will they change the name of Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express? May as well change everything while we're at it."

The book was originally published in the US  as Murder on the Calais Coach, so they could just go back to that if they wanted. 

If you knew the original title of Ten Little Indians, you would know that name changes are sometimes a good idea. 

[Fosse76]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 4:37pm

BalconyClub said: "Will the marquee end up at the Chicago History Museum, the Art Institute of Chicago, or the Museum of Science and Industry?"

Why would it? It's not original to the theater. 

[markypoo]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 7:44pm

Regardless of what it's now called, it's doing considerably better than back in 1989; when the theatre was closed and the lobby had been transformed into an electronics store.
I remember buying some cassette tapes there...

[gypsy101]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 8:51pm

bk said: "When will they change the name of Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express? May as well change everything while we're at it."

that was the name of that train though

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 10:31pm

carnzee said: "If you knew the original title of Ten Little Indians, you would know that name changes are sometimes a good idea."

It's now called "And Then There Were None", because they realized Indians wasn't much better.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 11/13/18 at 11:00pm

So now there’s a James Nederlander Theatre in Chicago and a David Nederlander Theatre in New York. Do the other Nederlanders feel left out now?

[bk]

Posted: 11/14/18 at 4:53am

carnzee said: "bk said: "When will they change the name of Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express? May as well change everything while we're at it."

The book was originally published in the US as Murder on the Calais Coach, so they could just go back to that if they wanted.

If you knew the original title of Ten Little Indians, you would know that name changes are sometimes a good idea."

The title change for the US had nothing to do with these oh so sensitive times.  You do know that, right?  And it's hardly the same as Ten Little Indians, as you well know.  The Orient Express was the name of a train.  The epithet in Indians was, in the US, a racial slur.  But while we're at it, should we change Ten Little Indians to something less, um, offensive to Native Americans.  Do tell.

"The US title of Murder in the Calais Coach was used to avoid confusion with the 1932 Graham Greene novel Stamboul Train which had been published in the United States as Orient Express.[6]"

 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 11/14/18 at 8:29am

bk said: "When will they change the name of Agatha Christie's Murder on the Orient Express? May as well change everything while we're at it."

If you take a look at the article linked in the original post, the main reason for the name change is to honor a particular individual. 

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/14/18 at 9:26am

Changing the name of the theater to honor man with a long history with the theaterical world is fine with me. What gets my goat is the folks who find the current name "Oriental" to be somehow offensive. 

It demonstrates a lack of knowledge, and shows a preference for the moronic vs. the enlightened.

The word Oriental is a synonym for the word Eastern. The word Occidental is its antonym, and means Western. Are the words Eastern and Western equally offensive? Of course not. 

The issue is that a large group of people were once referred to as Orientals (from the Orient, or the Far East). That in itself, is/was not disrespectful. The disrespect was demonstrated when those people were viewed as second-class, and as subservient to a larger group of... well, morons.

The use of the word, "Oriental" in the name of the theater is not a reference to the peoples who were disgracefully disrespected by the morons. It is an adjective used to describe the design motif of the interior of the theater. To find the use of the word as a description of the design motif as "offensive" is to imply that the Oriental design motif is offensive. 

When the title of "Oriental" in the name of the theater is misconstrued as being offensive, then the morons "win". It proves that their bad behavior can create an element of fear, and that they can change how "good" people react and think because of that fear.

I hate that idea.

Updated On: 11/14/18 at 09:26 AM

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 11/14/18 at 5:03pm

Well, this Asian-American is glad for the name change. I get the arguments on the other side about how "The Oriental" is referring to an object, i.e. the theater itself, and should not be offensive. True, but at the same time just seeing the word is loaded with a lot of history of "othering" Asian-Americans/Pacific Islanders (AAPI) and viewing them as "exotic" and not really American. This was the case in many legal cases in the past where Asian-Americans were plaintiffs alleging discrimination (and many of those cases were lost). So yeah, maybe it's ok to call a theater "oriental" but if we're being honest here, there's no meaningful loss to anyone to have this name change but does a world of good for people who no longer have to see that word displayed in bright lights. 

Also, John Adams, thanks for the history lecture, but it's doesn't completely showcase the issues AAPIs have with the word.

Updated On: 11/14/18 at 05:03 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/14/18 at 5:11pm

Good idea. How about Murder on the Starlight Express?

I saw that!  It was the dreadful West End cast in 1999.

[John Adams]

Posted: 11/15/18 at 2:29am

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "Also, John Adams, thanks for the history lecture, but it's doesn't completely showcase the issues AAPIs have with the word."

As a first-generation American, I could choose to respond with anecdotes about my parents and grandparents to try and prove that AAPIs aren't the only people with "issues"... but I doubt I could be effective in any meaningful way by taking that tack.

I'm really interested, however, in your reaction to a couple of points in this op-ed, written for the LA Times by an Asian American writer. The points I'd like to read your reactions to include:

"As an Oriental, I am bemused. Apparently Asians are supposed to feel demeaned if someone refers to us as Orientals. But good luck finding a single Asian American who has ever had the word spat at them in anger. Most Asian Americans have had racist epithets hurled at them at one time or another: <use the link above to read the slurs the writer incorporated>. But Oriental isn't in the canon."

"A wave of anti-Oriental discrimination is not sweeping the country. Besides, the term has been steadily falling out of circulation since the 1950s, and it's mainly used today by older Asians and the proprietors of hundreds if not thousands of restaurants, hotels, shops and organizations with Oriental in their name. The well-intentioned meddlers will create trouble for exactly the population they want to defend."

...and finally, in speaking of how frequently the word "Oriental" is utilized in her own field (Oriental Medicine):

"Are we really going to waste time, energy and millions of dollars to rebrand our entire discipline — rename our schools and boards, redesign corporate identities, websites and publications and send out thousands of revised diplomas — all to wipe away an insult that doesn't exist?"

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 11/15/18 at 4:04pm

I mean you found one doctor who doesn't take issue with the term. She can feel how she wants. I have a different opinion. I mean finding the one is a common tactic. She is probably defending the usage because she's a doctor in the field that identifies as "oriental medicine" and seems more about the "inconvenience" of the name change and more defensive than seems rational to me. She takes points people who have studied Asian-American history and sociology but doesn't fully respond to them. This line, "A wave of anti-Oriental discrimination is not sweeping the country." shows her ignorance and lack of knowledge of historical waves of violence against Asian-American communities and the recent upward trajectories of Asian-American discrimination and violence.

She also takes her personal experience as true for all AAPI which to me seems very narrow and uninclusive. She also makes an unneeded attack about "fragile egos" and whatever which usually to me is a red flag for something more nefarious. And WTF does she mean about changing the term will "create trouble for exactly the population they want to defend". That sounds very "please don't rock the boat and bring attention to us" to me. I don't have time for that. 

Anyway, here are links that she references and in my opinion dismisses without much thought or a well-thought response:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/after-50-years-asian-american-advocates-say-term-more-essential-n875601

"There was a recognition that the term Oriental was a Eurocentric term that geographically referenced the East relative to Europe,” said Karen Umemoto, director of UCLA’s Asian American Studies Center, which was co-founded by Ichioka in 1969. “Many of the stereotypes of Orientals and Orientalism was part of the project of imperialist conquest — British, and later, American — in Asia, with the exoticization of the Oriental as well as the creation of threat and fear, as evidenced in the yellow peril movement.”

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112465167

"

WERTHEIMER: Why is Oriental such a loaded term? Why do Asian-Americans find it offensive?

Mr. YANG: Well, you know, I think history really does play a huge role in this. And when you think about it, the term Oriental itself kind of feels freighted with luggage. You know, it's a term which you can't think of without having that sort of the smell of incense and the sound of a gong kind of in your head.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. YANG: And you know, beyond that it's - that's just sort of like the cultural baggage that comes with it. I mean obviously there are political issues. It's something which has been associated with racist campaigns, with stereotypical imagery. And you know, frankly, it's just not a very precise term. When you think about it, Orient...

WERTHEIMER: A kind of blanket aspect of it.

Mr. YANG: Yeah.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. YANG: It's - Orient basically translates into East. And you know, here in New York, when you're thinking of East you could be, you know, saying Long Island or something, and certainly from the vantage point of people, you know, kind of contextually thinking about what, you know, the East means, that only really applies in a flat world. I mean, you know, you keep on going East, you end up West, so…

WERTHEIMER: Well, but really isn't this word already over? I mean hasn't there been a shift to simply Asian or Asian-American or more specific words that describe national or ethnic origin? I mean, do you think anyone still really says Oriental...

Mr. YANG: Well...

WERTHEIMER: ...to describe anybody, like to describe you?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. YANG: I've...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. YANG: I have actually, I've heard it before, in not in a very sort of attractive light, used towards me. But I think that, you know, that's actually part of the rationale around this act here. It's a term that feels old. It feels antiquated, and for it to even be kind of contemplated occasionally and in casual usage is something which Asian-Americans certainly feel uncomfortable with, and you know, for it to be stricken from the public record just kind of makes sense in some ways.""

And unlike the doctor's experience, I'm from the American South and I have had the term "oriental" used against me as a racial slur, along with "gook" and "chink" and "ching chong" and other things. 

And you mentioned AAPIs aren't the only ones with "issues" and that's true. And like other marginalized groups who decide to fight back and assert their voices, they're doing something about changing the language to words we choose to identify for ourselves and changing attitudes. Isn't that the point? To collect more viewpoints from people who are actually affected and learn something?

Regarding my earlier point about the word itself and how it plants the seeds of "otherness" and "exoticness" and thus becomes dehumanizing and used to paint AAPIs as "non-American"...so much of the violence against AAPIs in U.S. history is never taught so most people don't know about it, but there's a storied history. Most of it, historically-speaking, stems from the fear of the other and how we do not belong in this country and the word "oriental" served as a word to illustrate that point. The most famous contemporary violent act against an Asian-American stemmed from his perceived foreigness, Vincent Chin.

Calling yourself Asian American meant rejecting the derogatory “Oriental” label in favor of self-definition. It meant discovering a sense of kinship in a population that remained quite small until the 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act loosened quotas set in place for non-European immigrants. And especially after the 1982 killing of Vincent Chin, a Chinese American man beaten to death by white autoworkers upset by competition from Japanese manufacturers, it meant banding together to combat widespread injustice.

Back to the main topic, the truth is this name change does not affect you in any meaningful way whatsoever. It's only a theoretical exercise in principle about "fragile egos" and "morons" and it's part of a bigger fight to stop a certain generational momentum that you see. You don't really care about the word itself outside that context nor do you really care about the name of this ONE theater.

Updated On: 11/15/18 at 04:04 PM

[bk]

Posted: 11/15/18 at 5:14pm

John Adams said: "Changing the name of the theater to honor man with a long history with the theaterical world is fine with me. What gets my goat is the folks who find the current name "Oriental" to be somehow offensive.

It demonstrates a lack of knowledge, and shows a preference for the moronic vs. the enlightened.

The word Oriental is a synonym for the word Eastern.The word Occidental is its antonym, and means Western. Are the words Eastern and Western equally offensive?Of course not.

The issue is that a large group of people were once referred to as Orientals (from the Orient, or the Far East). That in itself, is/was not disrespectful. The disrespect was demonstrated whenthose people were viewed as second-class, andas subservient to a larger group of... well, morons.

The use of the word, "Oriental" in the name of the theater is not a reference to the peoples who were disgracefully disrespected by the morons. It is an adjective used to describe the design motif of the interior of the theater. To find the use of the word as a description of the design motif as "offensive" is to imply that the Oriental design motif is offensive.

When the title of "Oriental" in the name of the theater is misconstrued as being offensive, then the morons "win". It proves that their bad behavior can create an element of fear, and that they canchangehow "good" people react and think because of that fear.

I hate that idea."

You're not going to win here.  And it will be something else in ten years.  For years no one could call an African American person black.  Now it's fine.  Go know.  Some of my best friends are Asians and not a single one of them objects to the word Oriental.  Different strokes for different folks.