TORCH SONG at the Hayes - a commercial run?

[JBroadway]

Posted: 9/23/18 at 8:13pm

So there was already some discussion about this in the other Torch Song thread about 30 Under 30 tickets, but I hope you'll forgive me starting a new thread, because this feels like a separate topic. 

Someone mentioned that the Broadway production of Torch Song is not officially a 2ST production. IBDB shows 2ST as producers, but not as sole producers. Does that mean that this is a commercial production? If so, I have so many questions.

2ST produced this revival at the Tony Kiser, right? Then they decide to move it to their own space on Broadway, but not have it be a part of their official Non-profit season? Or did the commercial producers decide to move it, and just keep 2ST on the producing team? Who's actually calling the shots here? If it's the commercial producers, then are they paying rent to 2ST for using the Hayes, or are they getting to use it for free because 2ST is still attached? 

Am I missing something here? It strikes me as an odd situation. Is there any precedent to something like this? It seems odd that 2ST would do something of this nature so soon into their new life on Broadway. 

It's kind of like if I were throwing a party in my living room, then someone came along and said "I'd like to pay you to replicate this party in your backyard later tonight, and I'll invite all the same people, and you'll be invited too." 

Updated On: 9/23/18 at 08:13 PM

[WayTooBroadway]

Posted: 9/23/18 at 8:36pm

Feel free to call 2ST tomorrow and report back what you find out!

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/23/18 at 8:42pm

It appears to be a commercial production in which 2ST is an Equity participant, perhaps the managing member. Who is calling the shots would be in the deal, and I don't know but 2ST does not appear to be just along for the ride. (NB that Jordan Roth's husband is the first named producer after 2ST.) I suspect the arrangement is an outgrowth of the fact that 2ST is basically broke (or at least land poor) and this arrangement made sense. It would suggest that they have at least some voice. There are other arrangements (several at LCT for instance and I think a couple at RTC as well) that are similar but this may be the first of its kind. Is it odd? Not really; I think it has a lot to do with financial condition and a desire to put its mark on the new venue at the same time.

[SomethingPeculiar]

Posted: 9/23/18 at 9:24pm

The Broadway transfer is a commercial production, produced by Richie Jackson and others, and the theatre they are renting happens to be owned by 2nd Stage. Based on what I've read/heard, Jackson had the rights to produce Torch Song. He brought the show to 2nd Stage and provided them with some money to help mount last year's production.

The 2nd Stage production was billed as "produced in association with Richie Jackson," and when the Broadway production was announced, the press release stated "Producer Richie Jackson announced today that the celebrated Second Stage production of Harvey Fierstein's Torch Song will return..."  2nd Stage is surely profiting from whatever Broadway deal they have, as both the originating theatre and as the landlord; like Hogan said, they might still have some artistic input, too. 

Compare it to the PIPPIN revival: premiered at the ART with 'enhancement' money provided by the Weisslers, and when it transferred to Broadway, it was billed as "the ART production of Pippin." Or, a hypothetical situation for THE HUMANS: if Scott Rudin had mounted the Broadway transfer at the Roundabout-owned Studio 54 following its initial run at Roundabout's Laura Pels Theatre.

2nd Stage isn't even listed on the Torch Song website (though it is on IBDB).

Updated On: 9/23/18 at 09:24 PM

[SomethingPeculiar]

Posted: 9/23/18 at 9:41pm

A better example, though not Broadway:  Here Lies Love premiered at the Public Theater in 2013. Big hit. It closed. It returned to the Public in 2014, but the return engagement was presented by outside commercial producers, who were leasing the venue from the Public.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/23/18 at 9:58pm

similar to some of the others but different. HLL, for instance, was a pure rental. This is not.And whatever may be on a website or a press release, the playbill controls, and unless it is changed, that will look like the IBDB credits. (We'll know, obviously, in due course.) This does not look like the typical Boyet or Rudin credits which always has the " in association with" that can mean a rightsholder, but can also mean someone who has a collateral interest or some other claim or concession. (Compare War Horse, Ann, and MFL at LCT for two variations.) Perhaps we will know a bit more some day (soon).

[itsjustmejonhotmailcom]

Posted: 9/23/18 at 10:35pm

Second Stage has no involvement other than billing (and royalty) as the originating theater. This is a commercial production produced by Richie Jackson, who is the sole general partner. Originating theaters often get billing as part of their deal when a show transfers, what's unusual here is that they negotiated for, and got, first position.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/24/18 at 12:02am

itsjustmejonhotmailcom said: "Second Stage has no involvement other than billing (and royalty) as the originating theater. This is a commercial production produced by Richie Jackson, who is the sole general partner. Originating theaters often get billing as part of their deal when a show transfers, what's unusual here is that they negotiated for, and got,first position."

even if what you say is true (what is the source?) they DO have another involvement because they are the landlord. Reasons to be skeptical: 1) they do not get a royalty. (2) I am sure it is an LLC and not a partnership. (3) Landlords often get billing as a producer based on concessions, etc. So what do you actually know and how do you know it? (I'm not saying you are wrong except as above but my confidence level is less than full.)

 

[itsjustmejonhotmailcom]

Posted: 9/24/18 at 12:55am

Good point Hogan: them being the landlord probably gave them better leverage to get that billing. I was approached to invest in the show (I ultimately passed but the weekly is very low and I wouldn't be surprised if this recoups) and have a few friends who are investors and co-producers.  Second Stage definitely gets a royalty, as most originating theaters do. And you are correct it's an LLC, even though the industry moved away from partnerships lead producers are still often referred to as general partners.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/24/18 at 1:05am

well the originating theatre certainly gets some compensation, which can vary considerably both in amount and in form, but I bristle at hearing it called a royalty, because "royalty" has a special meaning, and this is not a part of it. But then I also bristle at calling a managing member a general partner.  

[itsjustmejonhotmailcom]

Posted: 9/24/18 at 2:09am

Hogan you're a stickler for details and I appreciate that 

[quizking101]

Posted: 9/24/18 at 11:30am

I also feel like a run of 20 weeks could not be sustainable without outside investment. The first two 2ST on Broadway shows ran for only 10 weeks each, and the original Torch Song mounting off Broadway was 8 weeks.

If it’s a hit, I totally could see it extending until the Tony Awards, especially because, as of right now, 2ST doesn’t have anything announced for after Torch Song. This could be to 2ST what the recent CABARET was to Roundabout - An acclaimed production that turns a profit and helps fill the coffers a bit

[SomethingPeculiar]

Posted: 9/24/18 at 11:43am

2nd Stage has one more show to be announced for the 18-19 subscription, which their website claims will be in the Kiser (presumably not until July/August). Though if TORCH SONG closes sooner, maybe they could change that to another Broadway play at the Hayes?

Also, sort of off-topic, but I just noticed that Jesse Tyler Ferguson's husband is listed as one of the co-producers of TORCH SONG. If it does extend, Ferguson would be a GREAT Arnold!