"'FOSSE/VERDON' COMING TO FX"- Page 22

[amaklo]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 9:22am

There's an interesting interview with Nicole Fosse in Vulture, in which she acknowledges the show's factual inaccuracies (she likens them to historical fiction).  In fact, the 'happy ending' in the last episode wasn't nearly so happy.in real life. In 2000 Nicole's husband was killed by a drunk driver, leaving her with three small children.  That's why Gwen moved in with them, to help Nicole with the children. Then Gwen died two months later.

  https://www.vulture.com/2019/05/nicole-fosse-fosse-verdon-childhood.html

 

[artscallion]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 9:52am

Condensing events for times sake should not be done if it changes the meaning of those events. To me the shocking thing about the sex scene with Ann was the very fact that it happened when they show it happening, right after heart surgery. It said a lot about him in that he would even ask her to do this. And it says a lot that she would give in and do it against her better judgement. To me, it actually felt more like power and abuse, than sex. And none of that comes into play if you remove the immediacy of when they presented it as happening. If she had sex with him several weeks later, none of that tension exists.

Also, in the final episode, Gwen uses a Japanese santoku knife when preparing a meal in 1975. While this is a common knife nowadays, santoku knifes were not commonly used in the USA until the early 2000s.

[wickedfan]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 10:07am

I don't mind inaccuracies for the sake of condensed storytelling. For example, when Verdon and Fosse are talking about Reinking's new boyfriend, Verdon says she learned about him while teaching Reinking the role of Roxie for Broadway. But Ann Reinking didn't break up with Fosse until Dancin', which is where she met her new boyfriend, and that was a year after she did Roxie on Broadway. That doesn't matter to me. I clocked it, but I let it go.

What bothers me is changes made for what felt like the sake of character assassination, which is honestly what much of this show felt like to me. The hospital scene with Fosse and Reinking is being pointed out by many people not just because the timeline is off, but because by moving its action further ahead, it changes the meaning behind what that moment of sex was between them. From the Wasson book and Reinking's interview, you can tell it was an intimate moment of fear and joy for them, but that has been changed in the show to a moment of violation. Look at Margaret Qualley's face in that scene. She is not Bob's partner in that moment, she's his subservient sex doll. Changing the timeline does that. 

What I wish the show got to more, and we really only see it in the final episode, is the special bond the two had when working together and in life. Verdon said in interviews that them breaking up wasn't as painful as we might think, because they started as friends and there was still friendship there when they stopped being together romantically. How truthful she is about the pain we may never know as Verdon was notoriously very private, but then again she and Fosse always defied the norm so why shouldn't it be the case with their breakup? Even so, the word "friendship" should have been stapled to the wall in the writers' room when they were doing this show. We saw it in the last 20 minutes of the finale, but damn did I want more. The two had many downs, but they had incredible highs and their friendship is what fueled their collaboration, which is ultimately what changed Broadway. 

The irony is that I think Fosse would have been perfectly fine with how he was portrayed on this show. It's Verdon who I think would have been furious.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 3:27pm

CarlosAlberto said: "Oh just stop justifying the liberties taken with the truth. They could have easily addressed this as it really happened. People who don’t know any better will watch this and walk away thinking it’s the truth. Just STOP!!! It’s irresponsible!"

If a viewer doesn't know the difference between a documentary and a biographical dramatization--and can't tell from the way F/V was presented--there's nothing in F/V that will add to his/her confusion!

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 3:34pm

Mike Costa said: "According to Chita's understudy, LenoraNemitz, Gwen's tirade during the scene introducing Nowadays never remotely happened and it was always a duet. Too much artistic license is being taken with facts in this series and it would've been easy to check with the people who were in the room.

John Rubinstein has put on the record that Gwen never showed up to a Pippin rehearsal, laid on the floor and talked to Bob about Chicago. No one ever would do that. We all knew that while the scene was being presented to us on the television. Nor did Bob yell at Candy Brown telling her she was behind."
 

Gee, do you think it's possible Verdon and Fosse's daughter may have been witness to some things an understudy (however talented) was not?


Of course, Verdon didn't stop Fosse in the middle of rehearsal to talk about a different show, but that's pretty minor as dramatic license goes. Whether Fosse yelled at Candy Brown I don't know, but the biography reports that he frequently found one dancer to use as a "scapegoat", thereby putting fear in the hearts of the rest of the cast while allowing him to be more or less pleasant to everyone but the scapegoat. So while Candy Brown may be a stand-in for various others in different shows, the dramatization is essentially accurate.

Updated On: 5/30/19 at 03:34 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 3:51pm

missthemountains said: "I'm sure this is covered in the book, which I still haven't read, but did Verdon see the play on Broadway in the 20's and had been chasing after it for that long? It seems like it didn't even do well originally at the time, and with someone as cooky as Maurine Watkins (who also became a Born Again Christian late in life?) it surprises me that she really stuck with it and didn't try and seek out another vehicle...."
 

Gwen Verdon was 1 when the Watkins play was on Broadway. Verdon knew the piece from the mid-1940s film, entitled ROXIE HART and starring Ginger Rogers.

I don't have b.o. figures, but from the many times I have seen the film mentioned over the years, I assume it was a hit.

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 4:12pm

“Also, in the final episode, Gwen uses a Japanese santoku knife when preparing a meal in 1975. While this is a common knife nowadays, santoku knifes were not commonly used in the USA until the early 2000s”

Are you trolling, or are you really THAT big of a pain <<edited by BWW staff>>? Who cares about knife accuracy, unless it’s actually a plot point?

Updated On: 5/30/19 at 04:12 PM

[bk]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 4:33pm

No, he's not trolling, are you?  They brag about the minutiae and how much trouble they went to to get it right.  Well, no, they went to no trouble at all.  There are so many instances of detail stupidity it's actually mind-boggling.  I'm sure they had someone in research on this, but no, they just went the lazy writing route and the lazy prop route.

Given the postscript crawl and Nicole Fosse's interview, it is clear they needed her involvement in terms of reproducing the numbers, and securing that involvement came with a cost and a pretty big one.  It says "based on the book by Sam Wasson."  And yet...  and if that postscript doesn't tell you everything you need to know about how slanted this show was, then I don't know what to tell you.  They should have called it Nicole Fosse/ Verdon.

[artscallion]

Posted: 5/30/19 at 6:31pm

GiantsInTheSky2 said: "Are you trolling, or are you really THAT big of a pain <>? Who cares about knife accuracy, unless it’s actually a plot point?"

 

I'm neither a troll, nor a big pain...
The knife stood out to me and took me immediately out of the moment as much as seeing a gladiator wearing an iwatch would. When you add up a lot of these little anachronisms in one series, it becomes an issue. If it doesn't bother you, that's terrific. But there's no need to name call over what someone else thinks is worth discussing.

[RWPrincess]

Posted: 5/31/19 at 12:02am

I enjoyed the series for the most part but did find all the time jumps confusing at times. I’d like to read the book so I’m hopeful that is more chronological.

I found it interesting that Gwen’s son wasn’t part of the series at all aside from showing his conception. I had read that he lived with Gwen and Bob part of the time.

Definitely give Michelle all the awards. I’m not sure how she tops this but I’d like to see her go for EGOT.

Updated On: 5/31/19 at 12:02 AM

[BroadwayMarley]

Posted: 5/31/19 at 12:53am

Very sharp .. to miss the point of the knife .. The best way to deal with this faux pas is simply to smile -- not to let it color your view of the show.  Like the coffee cup in Game of Thrones

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/31/19 at 9:52am

Dunno. I guess growing up obsessed with film and theater I learned to suspend all disbelief. I’ve been an ardent fan of Bob Fosse’s work since childhood. Saw the original PIPPIN, CHICAGO, DANCIN’, his revival of SWEET CHARITY and BIG DEAL at least a handful of times and more. My book reports in junior high and high school were about Bob Fosse. Anyone who has known me since childhood is fully aware of my fascination of Bob Fosse. For over 20 years I’ve had 3 tattoos spelling FOSSE on my body including an enormous one on my back. Ben Vereen, Ann Reinking and several others associated with Bob Fosse have seen it. Having a few dancer friends has blessed me with having met and spend time with a handful of original Fosse dancers so I’ve heard fantastic stories about Bob and Gwen.

Yes, I’ve read ALL of the biographies on Bob and read Sam Wasson’s Bible twice including right before this series started.

When this series was announced last July, I flipped.  Everyone who knew me flipped.  Who and why on Earth were they creating a series about Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon?   Heck, I still know a crap load of people unaware of them.  Didn’t care as this felt like a gift to me.  As many have seen on this board, my enthusiasm even before the series started was quite obvious.  The 2 leads are actors I love so I knew that alone would elevate the project. 

Then the series kicked off.  Did I notice the inaccuracies?  Absolutely.  Knowing their stories like the back of my hand, I paid them no mind.  I watched the series as a form of fiction peppered with sections of their real life.  I understand cinematic writing and having to condense scenarios and moments.  I caught the accurate moments and where they combined things.  I understood.

HBO originally was set to adapt Wasson’s book which at 2 hours running time, his entire life would have to be shown in a montage.  Even Bob’s semi-autobiographical ALL THAT JAZZ only covered a year of his life (1974-75).  Even with 8 parts it obviously turned out it was impossible to tell and show EVERYTHING.   Even with 8 parts, it felt rushed to me. 

Anyway.  Until the Blu-ray release, I have the series saved and will watch it again later on.  Overlooking all the inaccuracies and enjoying it for what it is.  This series will be used by many dance instructors to explain to a new generation who these 2 legends were.  If they choose to read Sam Wasson’s book, they’ll be corrected with their information.  The series will give them an introduction.

Now folks, the reason why Candy Brown’s name was used for that PIPPIN rehearsal moment was simply to emphasize the fact that Bob Fosse ALWAYS called a dancer by their names.  Sadly, having her name used upset numerous people as it was a moment where he was reprimanding her.  I heard that Candy was thrilled her name was used as unless you knew who she was and her association to the Manson Trio number, you’d have no idea that actress was playing Candy Brown.   If you notice throughout the series, Bob ALWAYS addresses a dancer by name.   

Enjoy the pies and tip your waiters.   Gotta run, my Uber just got here.  

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/1/19 at 3:29am

brody, I'm really glad you enjoyed the series! Thank you for filling in the gaps for so many of the rest of us.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/1/19 at 9:39am

Wow, Brody- so glad you enjoyed the series- I am not a rabid fan - though I am a rabid fan of Barbra Streisand, lol- and reading of your love of Fosse and his work was really interesting. I loved it too- and thought both Williams and Rockwell were superb. Wish it would have gone and on for a new more episodes. 

[Blue_Lotus]

Posted: 6/2/19 at 9:02am

I thought this series was fascinating. It was very brave to do a show on Fosse and Verdon because it is generally believed that anything musical or theater related does not appeal to the masses. I am glad that the risk was taken if only to expose a new generation to who they were and the contributions they made. 

I would have to agree with many on this forum who expressed their concerns over Sam Rockwell's portrayal of Bob Fosse. As written, the part was devoid of any charm or joy for life and what he was accomplishing. What came across was a very insecure, self-doubting, negative, manipulative, self destructive individual. There is no doubt that Fosse had his demons. We all have more than one side and I feel that this particular series did not make the effort or take the time to present Bob Fosse's many sides - it stuck to one and that is quite unfortunate.

On a more positive note the series did accomplish to establish and reinforce and give long overdue credit to the great Gwen Verdon. 

Michelle Williams was revelatory and I hope she is showered with many awards for her gutsy and honest portrayal. 

 

 

Updated On: 6/2/19 at 09:02 AM

[luvcaroline]

Posted: 6/2/19 at 12:26pm

BlueLotus I wholeheartedly agree about Michelle Williams. She was superb. During every single episode I found myself thinking “I can’t believe this is Michelle Williams”. I had no idea she had such range. Now I want to see everything she’s done.

Also, count me as one who loved this series. I thought it was fascinating and a gift to all of us who love theatre.

Updated On: 6/2/19 at 12:26 PM

[wiggum2]

Posted: 6/2/19 at 8:15pm

I saw this on another board and I am curious about it myself, tons of people smoked on the show but Ann Reinking didn't... did Ann smoke in real life? It amazes me how much they smoked and were able to dance like that!

[darquegk]

Posted: 6/2/19 at 9:41pm

I'll be pleasantly shocked if they do another theatre-insiders miniseries. To me, I loved every episode of Fosse/Verdon, but my producer hat was alway son, thinking how carefully calculated this show was.

They managed to create something that would play to three different target demographics: it was a flashy showbiz show about a Broadway legend (the better to satisfy FX's now established reputation as the queer-interest crossover channel post Ryan Murphy breakup); it featured a revisionist, relatively feminist look at a known story with a powerhouse leading actress stealing the show (the better to satisfy the female-skewing "prestige miniseries TV" junkie market); and it featured a leading man interpreted as a wry, manipulative user if not abuser (the better to fit the series into the "cynical asshole antihero slowly destroys himself" mold, which plays very well to mainstream male audiences). If we lost some of Fosse's joie de vivre, as a few of you have said, it's almost certainly so that Series!Fosse can feel like a kindred spirit to Don Draper, Saul Goodman, Hank Moody, Greg House and even BoJack Horseman.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/3/19 at 9:48am

Finally finished the series last night and loved it.  I went in knowing it was a dramatization that would have some liberties taken because...every historical story dramatized for film does.  Every single one.  Even the stupid hospital sex scene.  I didn't take that seriously one tiny bit nor did I really care if it happened at that time or another time.  It was over 40 years ago.  I don't think any crimes were committed from the writing of that scene.

Why are people acting so new and so incensed to the concept of the process of adapting history to a dramatic form? Is it because the subject is dear to them? 

Yup.  Well...for some, but not all (loved reading BrodyFosse123's reaction to the series).  Just wait until the Zellweger Judy Garland film comes out.  No matter how good it is or she is in it, it's going to get ugly around here.

[kofler22]

Posted: 6/3/19 at 3:29pm

Weren´t they supposed to release a complete soundtrack album after the show final episode? Any news regarding that? I hope they do, since there´s a lot of material that they left out of the weekly releases! :) 

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 6/3/19 at 4:01pm

kofler22 said: "Weren´t they supposed to release a complete soundtrack album after the show final episode? Any news regarding that? I hope they do, since there´s a lot of material that they left out of the weekly releases! :)"

Seems all those tracks ARE the complete soundtrack.  Would have loved an official recording of Michelle’s acoustic “Where Am I Going?” and her duet with Bianca on “Nowadays.”   Heck, even “Who’s Got the Pain?” and her “A Little Brains; A Little Talent.”  

[MadsonMelo]

Posted: 6/3/19 at 4:05pm

Beautiful show with an incredible performance by Michelle Williams, I cried the last 15 minutes of the finale, amazing!

[moorfx]

Posted: 6/3/19 at 4:20pm

In theater, sometimes the best critique is simply ‘it didn’t work’.  It’s a lukewarm appraisal given when all the elements are in place for something spectacular to happen but the result falls short of expectations.  For me, Fosse/Verdon didn’t work.  The talent was there, the story was there, and the production values were top shelf; yet at the end of the mini-series I felt underwhelmed.  And mostly because of the depictions of the two leads.

Bob Fosse was a choreographer of unparalleled talent who created the most singularly recognizable movements in dance.  He was also a workaholic who directed three seminal films of the 70s, dated lots of women, had a few health problems here and there (some more serious than others), all the while winning praise from theater, film and television critics and audiences.  Throughout the ups and downs, he seemed to enjoy much of his chaotic, self-destructive hedonistic life. That’s what we saw in All That Jazz and similar portraits have been painted countless times elsewhere.

This version of Fosse, as played by Sam Rockwell, was sullen, somber and sickly. Where did he get his creative energy from?  Whatever inspired him to produce the choreography that now bears his name wasn't shown in this series. But we did see his perfectionism treated as insensitivity/cruelty towards dancers. What made him irresistible to women? Outside of career ambition, at least three women truly loved him. However, we can only guess what made him attractive in private because what we saw was a frail man clutching his arm, bitter about practically everything.  On screen, he smoked, he coughed, and he made several creative decisions apparently for the express purpose of belittling his partner and muse, Gwen Verdon.

Gwen Verdon was portrayed as the model of the long-suffering wife.  As evidenced by the praise Michelle Williams received on this site – she sounds like Gwen, give her an Emmy! she dances like Gwen, give her a Golden Globe! she cries like Gwen, give her another Emmy! – it seems that some viewers want to reward Verdon’s talent and loyalty to Fosse by awarding Williams.  This is in the same vein as those that honored Freddie Mercury by giving Rami Malek an Oscar.  Malek was good, as is Williams, but I found some of the comments about Michelle Williams to be over-the-top. 

Fosse/Verdon, a story about artists from fifty years ago, reflects modern times.  We shouldn’t like Bob Fosse because he was unfaithful and selfish. And as depicted, Fosse didn’t life his own life either, in part, because he was unfaithful and selfish. We should like or at least admire Gwen Verdon because she dealt with ageism and infidelity and bravely fought through it all while smiling.

I wanted razzle dazzle and got an average study of two very dynamic individuals: one subdued by contemporary mores and the other showcased in song, dance, and sympathy.  Tea, anyone?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/3/19 at 5:23pm

As evidenced by the praise Michelle Williams received on this site – she sounds like Gwen, give her an Emmy! she dances like Gwen, give her a Golden Globe! she cries like Gwen, give her another Emmy! – it seems that some viewers want to reward Verdon’s talent and loyalty to Fosse by awarding Williams.

To me, it sounds like most people want to award Williams for her performance rather than as some sort of proxy for Verdon's efforts, me included.  Maybe you didn't think Williams delivered an award-worthy performance, but I don't really follow your logic that others are unable to discern the difference between the actress and the subject.

Where did he get his creative energy from?  Whatever inspired him to produce the choreography that now bears his name wasn't shown in this series. 

Perhaps it is being reserved for a series or film that will be about him and his work, but I never understood that to be the focus of a series entitled Fosse/Verdon, which appeared to be primarily about the relationship of these two people, not an in-depth biography into the choreography and creative process of only one of its title subjects.

Outside of career ambition, at least three women truly loved him. However, we can only guess what made him attractive in private because what we saw was a frail man clutching his arm, bitter about practically everything. 

I saw a bit more than that, but honestly, power, notoriety and celebrity were enough for me to get it.  Look who is our current President and the women who support him, voted for him, married him and currently adore him.  Fosse was shown as an attractive younger man in the 50s and the quiet-yet-powerful taskmaster of the 60s-70s that turned him into an industry god.  Gwen's audition for Damn Yankees pretty much showed me everything I needed to know about his charisma and appeal.  As he got older, it looked like he learned how to exploit certain qualities to his benefit (or sometimes to his detriment).  What I didn't need was to be shown all the various ways in which women found him attractive beyond merely the physical.  To me, it wasn't essential in understanding his relationship with Gwen.

[luvcaroline]

Posted: 6/3/19 at 5:54pm

Mister Matt said:

Yup. Well...for some, but not all (loved reading BrodyFosse123's reaction to the series). Just wait until the Zellweger Judy Garland film comes out. No matter how good it is or she is in it, it'sgoing to get ugly around here."

 

I also want to say how much I enjoyed reading BrodyFosse123’s comments on this thread.  I also loved the pictures.  I’ve always been a big fan of Fosse’s work, but now I feel I know a little more about the man.  Thank you, BrodyFosse!