LeBron vs. MJ - Who's the GOAT?

[BroadwayRox3588]

Yes, I know this is a sports thread on a Broadway message board, but I figured what's the harm in taking a stab at this? So who do you think is the greatest basketball player of all-time, LeBron James, or Michael Jordan?

Personally, I still give the slight edge to MJ. However, if the Cavs win the Finals this season, then I think the argument for LeBron can definitely be made. I think he has much less to work with than MJ did with the Bulls, and he's been to eight straight Finals.

So what do you think? (bracing myself for impact here haha)

[UncleCharlie]

LeBron is 33 and in his 15th season. He is a unique physical specimen who really takes care of himself so I expect he'll play another 4-5 seasons at a minimum. I don't see him breaking down physically at the end like Kobe. When he's done, he will own every scoring record known to mankind. He will, without question, be viewed as the GOAT. The Cavs had absolutely no business taking this series from the Celtics. He willed them to victory like few I've seen. What he has done these playoffs is remarkable even if he's going to lose to the Dubs in the finals

[South Florida]

James was the better of the two.

[yankeefan7]

Without a doubt MJ. Putting stats aside, MJ never lost in the finals and Lebron will probably lose for the 6th time in a couple of weeks.

[yankeefan7]

"He will, without question, be viewed as the GOAT. The Cavs had absolutely no business taking this series from the Celtics. He willed them to victory like few I've seen. "

Really. The Celtics did not have Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward and you think the Cavs had no business of winning the series. Actually, I think it is minor miracle the Celtics got to a game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals.

[Call_me_jorge]

Will always love MJ in space jam.... he’s the GOAT.

[UncleCharlie]

yankeefan7 said: ""He will, without question, be viewed as the GOAT. The Cavs had absolutely no business taking this series from the Celtics. He willed them to victory like few I've seen. "

Really. The Celtics did not have Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward and you think the Cavs had no business of winning the series. Actually, I think it is minor miracle the Celtics got to a game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals."

Yeah, really. The Celtics still have guys like Al Horford, Jaylen Brown and a budding star like Jayson Tatum. Without Kevin Love, the group surrounding LeBron is thoroughly mediocre. He was a one man show. And BTW, this will be the 8th straight year, LeBron is in the finals. Basketball is a team game and winning or losing in the finals is not totally within the control of any individual player. Steve Kerr is a fantastic coach. As a player he was a good 6th or 7th man. He has 5 rings as a player and never lost as a player in the finals. Does that make him better than LeBron in your mind?

[yankeefan7]

"

"He was a one man show. And BTW, this will be the 8th straight year, LeBron is in the finals. Basketball is a team game and winning or losing in the finals is not totally within the control of any individual player,  Steve Kerr is a fantastic coach. As a player he was a good 6th or 7th man. He has 5 rings as a player and never lost as a player in the finals. Does that make him better than LeBron in your mind?"

So when the Cavs win it is because Lebron is a one man show and gets all the credit but when they lose in the finals, it is a team game - lol. I think everyone will agree Tatum is a budding star but he is still a rookie. Kevin Love statistically is better than Al Hoford in points per game and rebounds. Jaylen Brown averaged 14.5 points a game and 1.6 assists, I think that is pretty much what you would think is ok as a shooting guard. You do remember when  Lebron went to the finals with Miami, he only had future HOF player Dwayne Wade and All Star Chris Bosh on his team - lol

Steve Kerr was a role player not a star carrying the team, so nobody would ever compare the players. He would have been nothing without people double teaming MJ so he could have wide open jump shots all the time. Just watch any sports talk show on ESPN, Fox Sports and they bring up the fact that MJ never lost in the finals and Lebron has already lost 5 times when they are saying who is better.

[UncleCharlie]

yankeefan7 said: "So when the Cavs win it is because Lebron is a one man show and gets all the credit but when they lose in the finals, it is a team game - lol. I think everyone will agree Tatum is a budding star but he is still a rookie. Kevin Love statistically is better than Al Hoford in points per game and rebounds. Jaylen Brown averaged 14.5 points a game and 1.6 assists, I think that is pretty much what you would think is ok as a shooting guard. You do remember when Lebron went to the finals with Miami,he only had future HOF player Dwayne Wade and All Star Chris Bosh on his team - lol

Steve Kerr was a role player not a star carrying the team, so nobody would ever compare the players. He would have been nothing without people double teaming MJ so he could have wide open jump shots all the time. Just watch any sports talk show on ESPN, Fox Sports and they bring up the fact that MJ never lost in the finals and Lebron has already lost 5 times when they are saying who is better."

I don't have a lot of interest in these endless back and forths about something as subjective as this so I'll just make a few points and then you can say and think what you want.

It's silly to compare these two when MJ's career has been over for 15 years and LeBron has at least another 3-5 productive years left. That's why I said "when he's done". Having said that, LeBron has led his team to the finals in 9 of his 15 seasons, 8 in a row which is ridiculous. MJ did it in 6 of 15 seasons although admittedly the last 2 were with a bad Wizards team after a 3 year layoff. If you just watched the Dubs beat the Rockets, the team with the best record in the NBA, you saw just how hard it is to even get to the finals. James Harden, the presumptive NBA MVP couldn't get his team there. Just getting there is an accomplishment not to be minimized (and yes, Paul was injured but Iguodala a key player in establishing the Dubs passing game and flow was out too for 4 straight games and Klay Thompson, one of their big weapons was in foul trouble and on the bench for most of the first half tonight.). To go on about how MJ never lost in the finals just means in the other years he couldn't get his team out of the conference semis to get to the finals in the first place, nothing to brag about. The deeper you get into the playoffs, the better the competition you're facing and the harder it is for one single player to lead his team to victory no matter how good they are. It doesn't make James a lesser player. You can't win the finals if you're not in the finals.

During the 6 seasons the Bulls won the championship, they were almost always the best team in the league throughout the year. They won their division every year and in just 1 or 2 years did any other teams even have a comparable record to them. They never had to contend with a team as good as the Warriors with 4 All-Star starters. Never. They certainly were never a 4th seed in their conference like the Cavs were this year having to fight past a No. 1 and 2 seed to make the NBA finals. And being down 3-2 and needing to win the last 2 games and having Love play 5 minutes and contribute nothing those last 2 games, makes what James did even more impressive.

With the exception of the 4 years in Miami, and maybe 1-2 years in Cleveland, James has never been surrounded by the talent that Jordan had. James led a thoroughly mediocre Cavs team to the finals in his 4th year as a 23 year old. it took Jordan 7 seasons, not until he was 28 to get his team there. If none of that convinces you, look at this. James' last year with the Cavs before he went to Miami, the Cavs were 61-21. The following year, with largely the same cast of players but no James, they were 19-63. a 42 win drop cause James left. In MJ's last season in his prime before he went off to baseball, the Bulls were 57-25, the next year without Jordan, they were 55-27 and made it to the Eastern semifinals. Just a 2 win drop. Without MJ, the Bulls were still a solid playoff team. Without LeBron, the Cavs were a mess. What does that tell you about the impact they single-handedly had on their respective teams.

Jordan was 6'6" 195-200, James is 6'8" 250. When he wants to go to the hoop, James literally can't be stopped. We've never seen anyone like that before at that size with the strength to go against 7 footers and the agility to play guard. Magic had the size and the agility but not that kind of strength. And for the record, I think the MJ is better cause he never lost in the finals argument is silly. You talk about ESPN and FoxSports. They're paid to say polarizing, controversial things to get debates going and people clicking and tuning in. I don't make my judgments based on what long time provocateurs like Stephen A, Smith and Skip Bayless shout at me from the TV and neither should you.

It feels weird knocking MJ cause he's one of the all-time greats. And again, that's why I suggested when LeBron is done playing, we should measure full career against full career. But if you don't recognize and appreciate what LeBron has done to get his team to the finals this year, I'm sorry but you just don't know the game.

[BroadwayRox3588]

Stats only go so far. And a big reason LeBron is in the conversation next to MJ is because of what his mere presence can bring to a team. Especially given how poorly the Cavs played during his years with the Heat. He doesn't have a whole lot to work with, and he was still able to get his team to the finals. Does anyone think the Cavs would've gotten there without LeBron? The Bulls had MJ, but they also had Pippen and Rodman. And the Warriors still manage to win when Steph Curry gets hurt.

LeBron's presence can fuel a team, and his legacy extends far beyond his prowess on the court. Not to say that MJ's doesn't, but LeBron carries a massive load.

[South Florida]

I think UC has this right.  I look at Lebron like a 4" taller Michael.  I don't know the stats but lifetime shooting percentage would be an interesting comparison.

[yankeefan7]

Uncle Charlie - You sure had a very long post for somebody who did not have interest in endless back and forths. I will make this short. I never said Lebron was not great, I just said without a doubt IMO that MJ was better.

[UncleCharlie]

yankeefan7 said: "Uncle Charlie - You sure had a very long post for somebody who did not have interest in endless back and forths.'

The point of the very long post was to say everything I wanted to say in one post and be done with it, thus avoiding the need to go back and forth endlessly. Make sense now???

 

[yankeefan7]

"The point of the very long post was to say everything I wanted to say in one post and be done with it, thus avoiding the need to go back and forth endlessly. Make sense now???"

 I was teasing you a bit about it, whatever. Lebron had awesome Game 1 tonight, too bad only Kevin Love could give him some help. 

[UncleCharlie]

yankeefan7 said: ""The point of the very long post was to say everything I wanted to say in one post and be done with it,thus avoiding the need to go back and forth endlessly. Make sense now???"

I was teasing you a bit about it, whatever. Lebron had awesome Game 1 tonight, too bad only Kevin Love could give him some help."

I live in the Bay Area and decided to splurge so I was actually at the game. Yeah, it was really impossible to stop him if he wants to drive to the hoop. But damn, he really does cry a lot about the calls. All the Cavs fans are crying about the reversed block/charge call but if J.R. Smith does a put back at the end of regulation instead of having a brain fart and dribbling out to mid court, the Cavs could have stolen this one. Once O/T started, they were deflated and Golden State just put them away. Great game. Oracle was really rocking as usual. We'll see how both teams come out for game 2 Sunday.

[brdlwyr]

I was in Chicago during the Jordan era and it was much fun. So many incredible performances. I prefer LeBron as a preson - not a fan of Jordan's ego and his literally fu++ing anyone in sight in the 90's. He also ignored his daughter and lavished praise and attention on his sons.

[South Florida]

You're comparing apples to oranges, 25 years ago Michael Jordan dominated an NBA like James is doing today.  The only difference is today's players are bigger, stronger, and more talented.  James dominates Jordan one on one.

 

[brdlwyr]

James dominates Jordan one on one.

Agreed! 

 

[yankeefan7]

"I live in the Bay Area and decided to splurge so I was actually at the game. Yeah, it was really impossible to stop him if he wants to drive to the hoop. But damn, he really does cry a lot about the calls. All the Cavs fans are crying about the reversed block/charge call but if J.R. Smith does a put back at the end of regulation instead of having a brain fart and dribbling out to mid court, the Cavs could have stolen this one. Once O/T started, they were deflated and Golden State just put them away. Great game. Oracle was really rocking as usual. We'll see how both teams come out for game 2 Sunday."

Awesome that you got to go to Game 1.. Losing Game 1 like that just totally was game changer for  the series. Series is basically over now, just a matter if Warriors win in 4 or 5. Wonder how the series would have gone if Cavs still had Kyrie and he was not injured.

[UncleCharlie]

I'm calling it now. Warriors in a 4 game clean sweep. Book it!