Don't apologize for telling the truth

[kdogg36]

From the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/03/13/vice-president-pence-is-right-joy-behar-publicly-apologizes-for-mocking-christianity/?utm_term=.1623a9a6f5db

Apparently, Joy Behar has apologized for saying this about Mike Pence:

It’s one thing to talk to Jesus. It’s another thing when Jesus talks to you. That’s called mental illness, if I’m not correct, hearing voices.

I wish she hadn't apologized. Believing one can speak to ghosts in the sky is indeed a form of mental illness. It's hard to believe that so many people could possibly disagree with this.

The right-wing Media Research Center launched an effort to hold “The View” accountable for promoting “anti-Christian bigotry,” which resulted in at least 40,000 protest phone calls made to ABC and at least 6,000 calls to advertisers on “The View” by the end of February.

There is no such thing as "anti-Christian bigotry." Religion is entirely a choice (at least in this country). I was raised a Christian, but chose not to be one as an adult. I could choose to be a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Christian again, but I choose not to. Since religion is a choice, it is fair game to use religious affiliation as a basis for judging others. I certainly expect that many religious people judge me for being an atheist.

[LYLS3637]

I wish she hadn't apologized either. 

I'm tolerant of the Mike Pence-brand of Christianity. I accept their beliefs and goofy behavior. Speak in tongues, talk to Jesus, give away your paycheck to your criminal pastor raking in six figures. You do you!

There's a line though-- once they start legislating their own dogma. And that has been Mike Pence's MO for the past two decades. Once a "Christian" crosses that line, calling their judgment into question is not bigotry, it's necessary. 

[javero]

Add me to the list of folks who wish she hadn't apologized.

[henrikegerman]

"There is no such thing as "anti-Christian bigotry." Religion is entirely a choice (at least in this country)."

Your premise is that as long as something is a "choice," it can't be the object of bigotry.  And that therefore there is no religious bigotry.

No.

I agree with Behar but also understand her need to be politic and apologize.   Absolute truth and obligatory niceties (especially for public figures like Behar) are frequently in conflict.  Which is unfortunate.  But nonetheless true.

[sabrelady]

$pon$ser$.   

THAT is why she apologized.

Think not? remember the bruhaha when they dissed Nurses

.http://people.com/tv/the-view-celebrates-nurses-after-losing-advertisers-following-controversy/

[Lot666]

kdogg36 said: "From theWashington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/03/13/vice-president-pence-is-right-joy-behar-publicly-apologizes-for-mocking-christianity/?utm_term=.1623a9a6f5db

Apparently, Joy Behar has apologized for saying this about Mike Pence:

It’s one thing to talk to Jesus. It’s another thing when Jesus talks to you. That’s called mental illness, if I’m not correct, hearing voices.

I wish she hadn't apologized. Believing one can speak to ghosts in the sky isindeeda form of mental illness. It's hard to believe that so many people could possibly disagree with this.

The right-wing Media Research Center launched an effort to hold “The View” accountable for promoting “anti-Christian bigotry,” which resulted in at least 40,000 protest phone calls made to ABC and at least 6,000 calls to advertisers on “The View” by the end of February.

There is no such thing as "anti-Christian bigotry." Religion is entirely a choice (at least in this country). I was raised a Christian, but chose not to be one as an adult. I could choose to be a Muslim, a Buddhist, or a Christian again, but I choose not to. Since religion is a choice, it is fair game to use religious affiliation as a basis for judging others. I certainly expect that many religious people judge me for being an atheist."

This may be my all-time favorite post on this board.

[ErikJ972]

Is there just no such thing a anti-christian bigotry or does that reply to all religions? So there's no such thing as anti-semitism? There's no anti muslim bigotry in the United States? 

I wish Joy did not apologize too. But I think there is absolutely such a thing as anti christian bigortry and to imply otherwise is traveling down a slippery slope.

[haterobics]

She apologized for offending people. She never said she said something she didn't still believe to be true.

[kdogg36]

ErikJ972 said: "Is there just no such thing a anti-christian bigotry or does that reply to all religions? So there's no such thing as anti-semitism? There's no anti muslim bigotry in the United States?"

I think you and Henrik are right that I was a little too cavalier about this. My point is that many people put religion in the same bucket as race, sex, and sexual orientation as things beyond criticism, and that is ridiculous. I also think that anti-Christian prejudice is not a significant problem in the USA, and that anti-Muslim prejudice is often really based on race rather than religion. (I'm thinking, for instance, of the murder of several Sikhs after 9/11 because they looked a certain way). 

(And thanks, Lot666!)

[ErikJ972]

" I also think that anti-Christian prejudice is not a significant problem in the USA, and that anti-Muslim prejudice is often really based on race rather than religion. (I'm thinking, for instance, of the murder of several Sikhs after 9/11 because they looked a certain way). "

I know a lot of American Muslim high school students who would beg to differ.

[kdogg36]

ErikJ972 said: "I know a lot of American Muslim high school students who would beg to differ."

I believe you, of course. This is difficult territory. I think a lot of Muslims in the USA experience unfair treatment. On the other hand, just as I have encouraged individual Catholics and Republicans to disown their respective organizations because of these organizations' overwhelmingly anti-LGBT stance, I'd absolutely encourage a Muslim individual to do the same, because that voluntary organization is at least as bad. I think a lot of progressives would frown on this while accepting the other two examples, and that bothers me.

[Mister Matt]

Unless, of course, telling the truth is motivated by the immature mean-girl desire to humiliate and bully others, which when criticized, is commonly followed by the BS response of, "I was just being honest."  

[qolbinau]

kdogg, truer words have never been spoken on this forum. And you are absolutely right RE: so called 'progressives' being happy when people criticise the ring-wing homophobic Christian religion but not the right-wing homophobic Islamic religion. I don't think there is a single political issue right now that 'progressives' are so intellectually confused on. I ask 'progressives' to get a religious education for yourselves and understand the difference between Islam and Muslims, the Islamic doctrine, and the negative impact that Islamic doctrine has on muslims (especially muslim minorities, such as gay people). Listen to muslims such as Ayaan Hirsi or the reddit "exmuslim" channel. 

It is just amazing that mostly privileged young white people sit there defending a religion that is so oppressive for the people they are meant to care about (muslims). I'm sure I know more gay muslims than they do - especially from Islamic theocracies - which helps me understand just how oppressive the religion is especially once politicised in governmental systems. But this information is widely available on the internet - there is no excuse not to educate yourself.

People love to compare the Trump administration to an early Nazi regime but you have to understand we already live in a world with incredibly right-wing fascist regimes in the form of politicised Islam - there are many, many countries where it is illegal to change or leave Islam (punishable by imprisonment and sometimes death), and where gay people are socially isolated, beaten, imprisoned or killed (both lawfully and unlawfully). It is just madness when it is over something that is not real.

If you are a progressive and educate yourself on these matters, and you are still not shocked and appalled at the right-wing fascism that is happening in this world RIGHT NOW - you cannot call yourself a progressive. Please call yourself what you actually are - a right-wing conservative. 

 

[ErikJ972]

 You are not progressive Q.

Next time I have a kid crying in my office who has been horribly bullied because they are Muslim maybe I should sit them down and have them read your hateful words. Or tell them they deserved it because their religion is homophobic.

And YOU are the one who should educate yourself about religious liberty in the United States of America. 

You sound like the most privlliged white person on this board.

[qolbinau]

That is such a stupid, stupid argument to make and completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. We are talking about criticising belief systems and ideas - bullying or abusing any individual person because of their religious beliefs is absolutely wrong and unethical and should be dealt with appropriately - but of course criticising a belief system or ideas is NOT the same thing as bullying or abusing an individual person because of their religious beliefs. Do you notice how almost none of my criticism is directed towards individual people? It's directed towards SYSTEMS and IDEAS. If you genuinely think the situation you describe is a practical implementation of what I am suggesting you are so misguided it is sickening. As I said, actually consider there is a meaningful difference between Islam (a belief system/ideas) and Muslims (people that are intellectually abused to hold these beliefs from childhood, or in some cases choose to hold these beliefs by choice later in adulthood). 

I am certainly progressive in any real definition of the world - I oppose right-wing, factually incorrect belief systems (such as Islam) that cause the oppression of muslims and non-muslims worldwide. And of course, I am consistent in my criticism towards Christianity too. Religious liberty does NOT mean immune to criticism, nor does what I am saying even impact religious liberty (criticising religions does not impact religious liberty). In fact, one of the few forces on this earth that genuinely impacts religious liberty is the politicism of Islam - because under the Islamic law of many, many islamic countries apostasy is illegal and is punishable by imprisonment or death!

Thankfully, Western countries are slowly moving away from their right-wing religious belief systems (e.g., Christianity). But it's incredibly hard to do that in Islamic countries when a right-wing fascist authoritarian government is telling you that you may be imprisoned or killed if you leave the religion!

I love that you talk about the USA's religious situation as if it is a good one. The USA is treading very dangerously close to being a Christian theocracy. There is a lot of criticism to be directed to how religion is dealt with and impacts government policy in your country. A LOT. 

The MOST progressive people are secular atheists who are standing up to powerful authoritarian right-wing sexist homophobic religious forces. Do not stand in their way! You are hurting too many people by letting this madness continue uncriticised!
 

[kdogg36]

I want to restate my point in one more way so as not to be misunderstood.

I hate the Republican Party for many reasons, but especially for its anti-LGBT orientation. I would encourage every individual Republican to leave the party for this reason. I would also say that choosing to associate with that party is a negative mark in my judgment of that person, but it's just one of many factors. I recognize that there are good human beings who are Republicans, and I have friends who are Republicans (though not Trump supporters), just as I have friends with other less-than-ideal qualities. I certainly condemn any violence against individuals for being Republicans, or any harassment of children because they come from a Republican background.

Everything I said here about the Republican Party is also true of Islam or the Catholic Church. They're all overwhelmingly anti-LGBT voluntary organizations, and therefore my judgments are justified. I'm sure many members of these organizations judge me for being a libertarian atheist, and that's fair game, too.

I recognize that, in contemporary America, many Muslims have experienced the kind of violence and harassment that I condemn. Republicans and Catholics rarely do. That's an important difference, and one we should all take responsibility for fixing, but it doesn't mean I have to pretend that Islam is a force for justice and equality in the world, anymore than I think the Republican Party is.

[Islander_fan]

Kdogg,

 

I agree with what you wrote, however, there's one thing that left a bad taste in my mouth from your initial posting. And, before I continue, let me start out by saying that I am mentioning this, not to start a fight or belittle your viewpoints or anything of that nature. I am bringing this up as a form of friendly conversation.

But, I have to ask. In your initial post of this thread, you said that religion is a choice. But, we as people get so many traditions, customs, viewpoints interested (and I don't mean any of those in a religious way) from our family. There are things that people grow up around, and love because of it being a family thing. For example, I grew up as a diehard fan of the New York Jets, this was because my father is a Jets fan, and every Sunday during the NFL season, my family gathers around, and we watch the Jets. I could choose to change team affiliations and root for one that doesn't suck, but to me, it wouldn't feel right. My Dad and I bond over music, his favorite band is The Grateful Dead, and in turn, he has turned me onto their music. I love it and relish it. Now, I could also make the choice to not enjoy their music, but that also wouldn't feel right. For some people, it's religion as well. I am an atheist but personally, have zero issue one way or the other bout how religious people are verses not. But, what would make some of the non religious examples I made different from being raised and ending up religious? 

[kdogg36]

Islander_fan said: "But, what would make some of the non religious examples I made different from being raised and ending up religious?"

Well, I obviously agree that all of these things are affected heavily by family upbringing. I was raised Catholic and just last night enjoyed my chicken while everyone around me was eating seafood. I appreciate how powerful a force family can be, but by the same token I'm intimately aware, though my own internal experience, that adults can make a different choice if the reasons are compelling enough.

To take your sports example, what if someone on the team did something truly egregious, and none of his teammates or management seemed to care? Can't you imagine a situation bad enough that you'd break with your family and support another team?

I don't think people need to, or ought to, break with their traditions when there's no good reason to do so. I happily celebrate Christmas with my family, for instance, because it seems like a family and cultural celebration at least as much as a religious one. 

But I think a religion - or a political party or other organization - that is overwhelmingly anti-LGBT (or anti-feminist) has provided reason enough to leave it, regardless of family tradition. (Actively working to change the organization is also an honorable choice, of course, but from my perspective I don't usually see much of a reason to bother.)

By the way, there's nothing remotely belittling about your question. Honestly, I thought my "ghosts in the sky" crack would attract the most vitriol!