Angela Lansbury: Women must 'sometimes take blame' for sexual harassment

[morosco]

“We have to own up to the fact that women, since time immemorial, have gone out of their way to make themselves attractive,” the 92-year-old said. “And unfortunately it has backfired on us — and this is where we are today.”

“We must sometimes take blame, women. I really do think that,” she added. “Although it’s awful to say we can’t make ourselves look as attractive as possible without being knocked down and raped.”

Angela Lansbury: Women must 'sometimes take blame' for sexual harassment

[TotallyEffed]

This is a very old school state of mind and I have heard it many times from women of a certain age.

 

Go easy on her.

[Call_me_jorge]

Oh, Angela

[adamgreer]

TotallyEffed said: "This is a very old school state of mind and I have heard it many times from women of a certain age.



Go easy on her."

No, sorry.  Victim blaming is never ok. I love her, but to have lived through decades of social progress and learned nothing? No. This isn't ok.  Ugh.

[TotallyEffed]

It is definitely not okay and I'm not defending her.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Her quotes, the one that is trending right now, and her other one about victims of assault and rape should never be blamed, sounds like she was thinking out loud and still trying to figure out her thoughts on this. Victim blaming is never ok, but it is something younger generations (and when I say younger I mean like people in their 30s and below....maybe 40s) have fought really hard to normalize to fight off the historic attitudes that victims were asking for it or invited it somehow or shared the blame. Angela's quotes sounds like someone who is being introduced to the concept of victim blaming while still dealing with that historical attitude towards victims of sexual violence.

Also, she did start out at MGM at a very young age (people forget how expansive her career was because she always looked older than she was until a certain age where she finally looked like the age she actually was) so maybe growing up at that environment during her formative years made her believe that women shared some of the blame because those environments foster those attitudes. Oftentimes, it's to take responsibility away from the perpetrators and other times it's women themselves who think that way in order to feel like they have more control over the situation than they do.

[JennH]

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "Her quotes, the one that is trending right now, and her other one about victims of assault and rape should never be blamed, sounds like she was thinking out loud and still trying to figure out her thoughts on this. Victim blaming is never ok, but it is something younger generations (and when I say younger I mean like people in their 30s and below....maybe 40s) have fought really hard to normalize to fight off the historic attitudes that victims were asking for it or invited it somehow or shared the blame. Angela's quotes sounds like someone who is being introduced to the concept of victim blaming while still dealing with that historical attitude towards victims of sexual violence.

Also, she did start out at MGM at a very young age (people forget how expansive her career was because she always looked older than she was until a certain age where she finally looked like the age she actually was) so maybe growing up at that environment during her formative years made her believe that women shared some of the blame because those environments foster those attitudes. Oftentimes, it's to take responsibility away from the perpetrators and other times it's women themselves who think that way in order to feel like they have more control over the situation than they do."

Precisely this. Not that I'm condoning her statements, but as I said in the other thread, she, and all of us really, are only products of the societal era we grew up in. I don't condone such statements, but I understand them coming from a women with such an expansive career in which she was waging through toe waters where behavior like this was so normal, that NO ONE thought any worse of it. 

[Alex Kulak2]

If you listen closely, you can hear the whistling of Elaine Stritch, Ethel Merman, and all the other Broadway divas spinning in their graves

[BuddyStarr]

I can give no defense of her.  We can only hope she meant that "while women can where whatever they want, unfortunately men are pigs."  It's like saying, well, you wore steak around your neck, you didn't expect the lions to attack you?  Your bad"  Her reasoning is sorta similar to the Mayim Bialik open letter in the times. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/opinion/mayim-bialik-harvey-weinstein.html

[GeorgeandDot]

She's just very very very old. It's just an old school way of thinking. I'm not defending her, I'm just saying that she lives in kind of a different world.

The line about women taking blame is confusing to me since it kind of clashes with the rest of her statement. She basically says that women should take blame, but it is a shame that women can't seem to wear whatever they want without men thinking that they have a right to touch them. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Verdict: She's old and she knows not what she says.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Wow. Do old people really think this way?

I feel that if a woman goes out of her way to make herself attractive, then she should not be shocked if men she may not be interested in try to talk to her, buy her a drink, etc. However, where the line must be drawn is obviously at physical contact. You would think everyone would understand that, but judging by all the creepy older men who are currently being called out, I guess this is a new concept to some people.

[fashionguru_23]

Fine, I'll do it: I feel like Angela Lansbury is saying that there are two sides to every story. Unless you are present every time sexual harassment happens, you can't say who is at fault. This makes me think of those cases when there is consent between two people, but then the consent is taken back/away, and an assult happens. I think that she was trying to say that we must look at the situation at every angle, not just "cut and dry".

[ghostlight2]

"Fine,I'll do it: I feel like Angela Lansbury is saying that there are two sides to every story"

Don't put words in her mouth. She is merely parrotting the thinking at the time she was in. She's still wrong, but these are 2 different things.

 

[poisonivy2]

Angela Lansbury's comments remind of a time I heard prosecutors say they prefer men in juries where the defendant is accused of rape/sexual assault. Saying women are way harsher/more judgmental about the victim, and pay more attention to her clothes, makeup, mannerisms as a factor. 

[SonofRobbieJ]

poisonivy2 said: "Angela Lansbury's comments remind of a time I heard prosecutors say they prefer men in juries where the defendant is accused of rape/sexual assault. Saying women are way harsher/more judgmental about the victim, and pay more attention to her clothes, makeup, mannerisms as a factor."

I was present with a group of friends, some women, and a discussion about the recent sexual harassment/assaults occurred.  The women (in their 40s and 50s) started with 'Well...NO ONE should be harassed, but...' and then proceeded to question why people go to hotel rooms for meetings and why would they let anyone treat them like that and why don't they have the same self respect that they themselves had.  The other men I was with just watched and couldn't quite believe what we were hearing.

It dawned on me that the posture of self-protection against sexual assault is so ingrained in so many women that this line of thinking becomes rational to them.  And the shame left by a sexual assault because they believe they let down their guard or didn't treat themselves with the so called 'self respect' that they hold so dear is overwhelming.  

The problem isn't Angela Lansbury...or any woman who must put on some kind of rhetorical armor to face the world every single day.  The problem is ALWAYS the person who commits the assault.  The problem will not go away if Angela Lansbury apologizes.  The problem is men and their unchecked positions of power in a society that have allowed them to behave this way...and have allowed women to take stances in their lives that can be viewed as 'slut shaming' just so they can deal with the way to world comes at them.  

[CallMeAl2]

SonofRobbieJ said: "...It dawned on me that the posture of self-protection against sexual assault is so ingrained in so many women that this line of thinking becomes rational to them..."

Very thoughtful post, thank you.

You are looking at the situation from a justice perspective: who is right and who is wrong. But there is another angle here: pragmatism. That's what I think Lansbury is trying to inject into the conversation. If you are a woman, what can you do to prevent assault and harassment and/or change the system? Simply saying that men should treat woman with respect hits the moral nail on the head; but it doesn't keep my niece safe who is auditioning for shows now. I'm giving her Angela's advice.

This is the same as telling school kids not to talk to strangers or tell young black boys to treat cops with respect and do what they tell you. The subject isn't who's right or wrong - it's about making sure your kids are safely tucked in to their beds every night.

 

 

[ErikJ972]

"I'm giving her Angela's advice."

Then you're giving her bad advice.

[Impeach2017]

Case in point: at my gym, women routinely work out in the most revealing and provocative clothing one could imagine.  You literally have to steel yourself not to even look in that direction for fear of being called a harasser.  This is not excusing anything, just stating a fact.  

[Dave28282]

fashionguru_23 said: "Fine, I'll do it:I feel like Angela Lansbury is saying that there are two sides to every story. Unless you are present every time sexual harassment happens, you can't say who is at fault. This makes me think of those cases when there is consent between two people, but then the consent is taken back/away, and an assult happens. I think that she was trying to say that we must look at the situation at every angle, not just "cut and dry"."

I wish this would get more attention in every case, because there indeed is a HUGE gray area.

I know many, many women who have gone wat too far with forcing themselves on directors, producers, etc, personally and sexually. Women that are driven and willing to go far to get what they want. Many of the accusations today depend on if they actually got what they wanted or not. I am not hearing any stories from women who accuse the man that made them a star.

Also, in a lot of "intimidation cases", what really happened is that the lady is annoyed that the person in question only likes her for sex, and is not seeing her for the immense talent that she thinks she is. 

I notice that women from an older generation have much more perspective on life. I saw an interview of an older lady the other day, who said "when I was 25, I was walking near a train station one day and there were 3 guys jerking off towards me. It made me laugh and I waved and said "Mmm, have a great day boys!", then I proceeded to the more important things of my day, like buying cauliflower. Being intimidated was the last thing on my mind. Why would I be?

[ErikJ972]

"I know many, many women who have gone wat too far with forcing themselves on directors, producers, etc, personally and sexually. "

No you don't.

[qolbinau]

Ok how about we drape women head to toe in clothing so men can’t see them. That’ll solve it, right? Oh wait - we already do that around the world. Yet no so called feminists of today stand up to this. They only care when a dotty old woman speaks out of turn. Hypocrites.

[Dave28282]

ErikJ972 said: ""I know many,many women who have gone wat too far with forcing themselves on directors, producers, etc, personally and sexually. "

No you don't."

Oh hell yes I do.

It seems to be forbidden to speak about this, but many women know exactly what they want and are willing to go far to get what they want. And yes, they want to be seen as special and are often disappointed when it turns out they are liked for 1 thing. 

Often producers, casting directors or directors are the initiators, yes, and often women are the initiators too. Like I said there is a huge gray area.

The nature of showbusiness has always been about amiable manners, putting others on pedestals and granting others certain things and that works both ways in many variations.

[GavestonPS]

Unfortunately, I can't read the actual newspaper interview. But, as quoted, people are taking two sentences linked with a conjunction and discussing them as if they were unrelated remarks.

To paraphrase, Angela says some women invite sexual harassment (in the "hostile environment" sense) by sexualizing their dress and demeanor. She continues, "ALTHOUGH it would be terrible to say that a woman who dresses attractively deserves to be carried off and raped/assaulted." (Emphasis added.)

"Although" is the conjunction that links the two remarks (at least as they are reported in type large enough for me to read). "Although" in this context means the same as "however". Some women invite unwanted attention by their dress and behavior, HOWEVER that doesn't mean they deserve to be raped.

Frankly, she has a point about sexual harassment of the "hostile environment" variety. (I think we'll all agree quid pro quo harassment--"Sleep with me and you can have the promotion, don't and you'll be fired."--is always wrong.)

I'm not crazy about laws where guilt is determined solely in the mind of the alleged victim. If a woman attracts attention by dressing provocatively and flirting with a co-worker, it is okay as long she likes the attention she receives in return. If her same behavior draws unwanted attention, however, then she has grounds for a lawsuit. I realize that in most cases, the alleged victim has made it perfectly clear the attention was unwanted; but we have all heard of cases where the man was expected to be a mind reader.

I'm not chalking Angela's remarks to her age; I think she was just speaking from common sense.

[GavestonPS]

Alex Kulak2 said: "If you listen closely, you can hear the whistling of Elaine Stritch, Ethel Merman, and all the other Broadway divas spinning in their graves"

Are you kidding? If held to the standards applied in many industries, those women would have paid out millions in "hostile work environment" claims.

[GeorgeandDot]

qolbinau said: "Ok how about we drape women head to toe in clothing so men can’t see them. That’ll solve it, right? Oh wait - we already do that around the world. Yet no so called feminists of today stand up to this. They only care when a dotty old woman speaks out of turn. Hypocrites. "

Women should be allowed to wear whatever they want whether it's a mini skirt or a hijab.  Stop it with your religious persecution.