Miss Saigon + racism

[Samara.tanner]

Posted: 7/7/17 at 7:39pm

I sent my friend the following two articles about Miss Saigon and racism. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/sexism-race-and-the-mess-of-miss-saigon-on-broadway

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4055203

I didn't get into Miss Saigon until after I saw the Tonys, and I'm just now starting to understand the plot. After reading the articles, it makes sense to me how Saigon is offensive. However, my friend who is half Asian/half Filipino responded to the articles with the following message:

"Okay not even one paragraph in im gonna call this BS. Many Vietnamese women yearned to get out of a war-stricken Vietnam and the only way at the time was to by being married to a US citizen. Simply put, the easiest way was to marry a GI. As money was tight, many women resorted to becomimg prostitutes. As a result, many prostitutes gave birth to the GI's children. It is a known fact that the US is the best place to raise a child. As someone who's heard countless stories of the opressive conditions of south Asia the whole thing about "children can only be raised by white Americans" is crap. Nowhere in the musical does it perpetuate that. Asia as a whole does not offer children the same opportunities as here in the US and that is the very reason why countless parents like my own came here. Im sorry but that article is painfully uneducated and clearly written by some white person with their own perceived views of a continent theyve probably never experienced first hand."

Do you agree with her, or do the articles resonate with you more? I'm just curious as to how other people react to the show. 

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 7/7/17 at 7:47pm

I think this is a topic that has been discussed to death here, and that while it is interesting ti explore the race and gender issues in Miss Saigon, two new threads on it are probably not necessary at this time.

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 7/7/17 at 7:48pm

We just had two very lengthy threads about this "issue" (which is a nonissue, IMO) if you want to read the discourse in them:

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1102294

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1102191

[youwillbefound2]

Posted: 7/7/17 at 9:55pm

I agree with your friend. I'm an Asian and I did not find the show offensive at all. I was a little confused at first about Chris's character but I got over that. When people say the stereotypes of Asian women being strippers is racist, I don't think that argument is very strong. This was an actual thing that happened back in the Vietnam war, and the musical is just trying to portray what life was like in Vietnam during those times. And the whole, "America is viewed superior to Asia." Thing is ridiculous because of course at that time period America was viewed superior to Vietnam. Of course Kim would want her child raised in America. It has nothing to do with racism. Would you rather have your child be raised in a war stricken country or a country where... It's NOT war stricken? Kim was living as a refugee working as a stripper in a bar. Anyone would think Tam would have a better life with Chris and Ellen than with Kim, and it has nothing to do with Americans being superior. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/7/17 at 11:15pm

Two points, which have probably been made in another thread:

1. Butterfly and Kim don't exist in a cultural context in the West of many Asian and Asian-American female characters who represent all types of women. It's pretty much "Tiger mom" or "massage parlor hostess" when it comes to the representation of Asian females.

2. As David Henry Hwang explains much better in his masterpiece, M. Butterfly, another part of the problem is the way we romanticize the Pinkerton/Butterfly relationship. As Hwang's character puts it, would we still find the star-crossed love affair so tragically romantic if it concerned an all-American cheerleader abandoned by a middle-aged Japanese businessman? (No, we would not.)

[A Director]

Posted: 7/8/17 at 12:17am

An article from the Vietnamese point of view.

http://www.americantheatre.org/2017/04/13/i-am-miss-saigon-and-i-hate-it/

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 7/8/17 at 1:19am

One thing that puzzles me.  All of the things that people criticize Miss Saigon for in its portrayal of Kim could also be said of Les Miserables in its portrayal of Fantine (and partially, Eponine).  Like Kim, Fantine falls in love with a guy who gets her pregnant and leaves her, she turns to prostitution to survive/support the child, is beaten/abused by the pimp and customers, gets ill and dies because of the prostitution and leaves her child in the care of a wealthier, healthier person to raise him/her.  Eponine also gets herself shot by climbing back over the barricade in wartime to be with a guy who doesn't love her one more time.  Yet i've never heard anyone say that Les Miserables is racist for its portrayal of French people or sexist for its portrayal of women or of French women.    

The last article linked above is from a person who rather arrogantly presumes that the show should represent her because she is from the same country, but of course, it is not about that author, it is about a fictional person in a very different time and circumstance.  I would never presume that any show set in the US or Canada should represent me (i've lived in each country approx. half my life).  Just because there are not many many shows about Vietnamese characters does not mean that any one show is therefore by default representing all Vietnamese people - that assumption makes no sense at all to me.   And to the author of the article in the first post who knocks down the strawman that the show is not a barnstormer of a musical to him, he seems to forget that some stories are tragedies, not barnstorming, raucous, rip-roaring fun-time shows. 

[A Director]

Posted: 7/8/17 at 1:33am

adam -  Here's something to think about.  No one complains about Les Miserables and Fantine and Eponine because there are many plays and movies with many different French women. People complain about Miss Saigon and Kim because she is the ONLY Vietnamese character people know.  

I see no reason to keep bring back this old worn out musical.

[carnzee]

Posted: 7/8/17 at 7:42am

A Director said:
I see no reason to keep bring back this old worn out musical.

 

This is the first revival it has had. 

To the OP's question, I think Gaveston hit the nail on the head. If we had more representation of other Vietnamese characters, I doubt people would complain about Miss Saigon. 

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 7/9/17 at 1:39am

A Director:  But that was kind of my point- that just because there haven't been lots of other musicals written about Vietnamese characters, doesn't saddle the writers of this one show with the responsibility to represent all people from that country (which obviously no character or set of characters could ever do anyway).  For whatever reason, those particular writers seem to be moved by women like Fantine and Eponine and Kim undergoing tragic circumstances.  Lots of audience members are moved by it too. 

That said, I do feel like Miss Saigon has not aged quite as well as Les Mis because of the opening scenes in the brothel and how explicit they are, whereas lovely ladies and the bamatabois encounter are a bit more indicated/implied.  So i am not arguing that people should try to love the show if they don't.  I am not a big fan of it personally.  I just don't think it is fair to expect the writers to represent everyone in one country just because no other writers had taken on the challenge of writing a broadway musical set in the same country at the time that they wrote their musical. 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/9/17 at 11:17pm

Re: the American Theatre article -

Diep Tran, who wrote the article, seems for the past year to have dedicated her life to getting offended by everything and then writing angry articles about it. It's getting a little ridiculous.

Anyway, I finally saw Madama Butterfly recently, and yeah, it's inadvertently really, really racist with a major "white savior" complex. However, Miss Saigon has a strong female protagonist and doesn't do nearly as much fetishizing of Asian culture and the idea of the "submissive Asian woman" as its source of inspiration. I can see how it might offend some people, but its heart is in the right place and some people need to just chill out.

[carnzee]

Posted: 7/9/17 at 11:36pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Re: the American Theatre article -

Diep Tran, who wrote the article, seems for the past year to have dedicated her life to getting offended by everything and then writing angry articles about it. It's getting a little ridiculous.

Anyway, I finally saw Madama Butterfly recently, and yeah, it's inadvertently really, really racist with a major "white savior" complex. However, Miss Saigon has a strong female protagonist and doesn't do nearly as much fetishizing of Asian culture and the idea of the "submissive Asian woman" as its source of inspiration. I can see how it might offend some people, but its heart is in the right place and some people need to just chill out.

I'm very familiar with the opera. Who is the white savior in Madam Butterfly? 

The white guy is a complete jerk. Sharpless is nice, but he doesn't save anybody. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/9/17 at 11:52pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "...Anyway, I finally saw Madama Butterfly recently, and yeah, it's inadvertently really, really racist with a major "white savior" complex...."

Pardon me, but you completely misunderstood what you saw.

Pinkerton is nobody's "white savior"; he is Puccini and the librettists' portrait of what we now call the "Ugly American". He even sings an aria in Act I about how he goes from port to port having his way with everyone. The consul cautions him that Gio-Gio San (Butterfly) will take their marriage very seriously, and perhaps Pinkerton does convince himself that he will be faithful. But the opera is clear that isn't likely. That he returns only to demand that Butterfly give up their son so the child can have a better life in America, only makes Pinkerton a bigger heel.

Henry David Hwang's argument (which I paraphrased above) is that the West finds Butterfly's fidelity "romantic" because we see our culture as essentially masculine, while we see what we used to call the "Orient" as essentially feminine. If the genders were reversed (at least back in the 1980s), we would find the American Butterfly ridiculous rather than tragic.

But that isn't to say the opera itself is racist or in any way an apology for Pinkerton.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 12:03am

One could argue that MADAMA BUTTERFLY (Puccini) plays into a third Asian stereotype: that of the "geisha", the perfect woman who lives only to please a man (and then obligingly offs herself when her services are no longer required). This was a more common stereotype at the turn of the 20th century (when the American play on which the opera is based was written) than it is today.

This stereotype, obviously, is what inspired Hwang's brilliant play.

But banning the opera would deprive us of some of the greatest music ever written. So as we do with Shakespeare's and Wagner's anti-Semitism, Aristotle and Plato's sexism, Marlowe's homophobia, etc., we just understand that their works are products of their times and focus on their considerable merits. Myself, I don't see MISS SAIGON in the same class, but neither am I fired up enough about it to man a picket line.

[carnzee]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 12:52am

Gaveston, great post about a problematic but important work. 

We do see Japan through the eyes of Belasco, which is problematic, but the work is very anti-imperialist. 

[A Director]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 2:08am

This is the ending of John Luther Long's short story, Madame Butterfly.

In despair Cho-Cho-San rushes home. She bids farewell to Suzuki and the baby and shuts herself in her room to commit suicide with her father's sword. After the first thrust of the sword, she hesitates. Although she is bleeding the wound is not fatal. As she raises the sword again, Suzuki silently enters the room with the baby and pinches him to make him cry. Cho-Cho-San lets the sword drop to the floor. As the baby crawls onto Cho-Cho-San's lap, Suzuki dresses her wound. The story ends with the words: "When Mrs. Pinkerton called next day at the little house on Higashi Hill it was quite empty."

[JennH]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 9:20am

My personal takeaway is that, I 100% can see where the offense is taken at Miss Saigon, but as it's known, those kinds of things did happen, now it just happens there's a musical about it based off Madame Butterfly and probably did use the "white savior" thing a little too much, but what are we supposed to do? Ban every theater piece that does similar things, like King and I? Which I have seen suggested btw...

Heck honestly, I more offended that still to this day I haven't seen Madame Butterfly itself done with an ACTUAL ASIAN WOMEN...I've never heard anyone talk about that, BUT...how many asian opera singers are there? I have kept up with the opera world as best I can, and I've found VEERRRYYYY few. So little, it hurts. And the ones I have found, are tiny ladies as asians tend to be, therefore have much lighter voices which renders them unable to sing a spinto, borderline dramatic soprano role. Thanks physics...

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 11:52am

Intelligent, well thought-out insight, Galveston. My problem with Butterfly was not Pinkerton but the title character. It just rubbed me the wrong way, and I am way less inclined to get on a soapbox and cry racism than many of my theater peers.

Like The Merchant of Venice, Madama Butterfly has not aged well but it's still a classic that we should revisit once in a while. Even out-dated works can have value and their impact on history should not be ignored, and the artistic links between the past and the present are and should continue to be a major facet of the performing arts.

[A0326T]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 12:33pm

JennH said: "My personal takeaway is that, I 100% can see where the offense is taken at Miss Saigon, but as it's known, those kinds of things did happen, now it just happens there's a musical about it based off Madame Butterfly and probably did use the "white savior" thing a little too much, but what are we supposed to do? Ban every theater piece that does similar things, like King and I? Which I have seen suggested btw...

Heck honestly, I more offended that still to this day I haven't seen Madame Butterfly itself done with an ACTUAL ASIAN WOMEN...I've never heard anyone talk about that, BUT...how many asian opera singers are there? I have kept up with the opera world as best I can, and I've found VEERRRYYYY few. So little, it hurts. And the ones I have found, are tiny ladies as asians tend to be, therefore have much lighter voices which renders them unable to sing a spinto, borderline dramatic soprano role. 

There are a lot of Asian opera singers who sang Ciocio San (Madame Butterfly) but mostly in Asia. But Madama Butterfly as an opera isn't so much about the race .... but mostly the music. One can close one's eyes and enjoy the music ... it's color blind, and the greatest love duet ever composed.

[JennH]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 2:56pm

A0326T said: "JennH said: "My personal takeaway is that, I 100% can see where the offense is taken at Miss Saigon, but as it's known, those kinds of things did happen, now it just happens there's a musical about it based off Madame Butterfly and probably did use the "white savior" thing a little too much, but what are we supposed to do? Ban every theater piece that does similar things, like King and I? Which I have seen suggested btw...

Heck honestly, I more offended that still to this day I haven't seen Madame Butterfly itself done with an ACTUAL ASIAN WOMEN...I've never heard anyone talk about that, BUT...how many asian opera singers are there? I have kept up with the opera world as best I can, and I've found VEERRRYYYY few. So little, it hurts. And the ones I have found, are tiny ladies as asians tend to be, therefore have much lighter voices which renders them unable to sing a spinto, borderline dramatic soprano role. 

There are a lot of Asian opera singers who sang Ciocio San (Madame Butterfly) but mostly in Asia. But Madama Butterfly as an opera isn't so much about the race .... but mostly the music. One can close one's eyes and enjoy the music ... it's color blind, and the greatest love duet ever composed.

 

"

That explains a lot, since I'm not all up to date on the opera scene in Asia, but even then you can't deny the racial aspects of this opera or even one like Lakme. It's not THE forefront of the story since opera always has been and will likely always be about the music, but to ignore the racial aspects entirely is kinda foolish to me. But again, Cio Cio San, just in terms of the role's list of logistics is probably the hardest to cast in the opera world... an Asian, who's stated to be 15 years old, and is a DRAMATIC soprano? I still wonder what the heck Puccini was thinking, because where does one find all that in one human being? You can't... (no, I'm not saying cast a actual 15 year old obviously, but somehow whoever sings her has to read young in some way, but even then, just be being a dramatic soprano, she CAN'T be cast someone young, there's no way any female under 35 could or should sing it, even the ones who obviously have a budding heavier voice because those heavier voices have a longer maturation process). I'm super passionate about this as one can probably tell. 

[A0326T]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 3:48pm

Maria Callas recorded a beautiful Madama Butterfly.  There she displayed a young 15 yo Cio Cio San and sounded and very much a young woman longing to love and wanting so much to be an American.  But all that in drawing a picture from one's imagination and the artist's interpretation.  Same goes for Aida. Leontyne Price probably the greatest (as African American soprano) but so is the Italian Renata Tebaldi or the Spaniard Montserrat Caballe. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 11:02pm

JennH, you obviously know quite a bit more about opera than the average person, so I'm surprised at your argument. Surely you know that in opera, the convention is that the VOICE conveys character, not the BODY. (Which is why the medium got away with all those fat tenors and sopranos during the early 20th century, and why teenaged roles are often written so that only mature women can sing them.)

And why, as the previous poster mentioned, Renata Tebaldi and Leontyne Price made memorable Butterflies.

***

"Important but problematic work" is a great way to describe the opera.

***

I don't see why it is any more dated than, say, STREETCAR. The gender relationships are quite similar.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 7/10/17 at 11:55pm

Gaveston, I'll just add my 2 cents re: Streetcar, which I don't feel is dated at all. I think the relationship in Butterfly sort of echos the Stanley/Stella relationship (I assume you're not referring to the Stanley/Blanche or Blanche/Mitch relationships). Because Streetcar focuses so intensely on Blanche, the Stella/Stanley relationship becomes almost entirely about her as opposed to themselves. They believe her to be their only problem, thus their return to relative normalcy at the end of the play (as opposed to the film) when Blanche is removed. Although it is clear that they are in a cycle of abuse and forgiveness (shown to us by the background characters Steve and Eunice), the play leads us to believe that Stella is too far in to ever be removed, even allowing her sister to be taken away to a mental institution! While she may mirror Butterfly on her attempts to keep her family together for the sake of her child, because of the focus on Blanche's part in the play, Stella and Stanley instead become a portrait of abuse as opposed to the enduring love and sacrifice of Butterfly.

Blanche herself takes the Butterfly role in terms of the magnitude of the role (perhaps Madama Moth, in keeping with Tennessee's description?), but her relationship with men is never really rooted in love, as Butterfly's and Kim's is, but an intense need for protection and her uncontrollable sexual desire. This, along with an almost operatic mad scene, gives Blanche more psychological colorings than Butterfly, who's enduring fidelity comes almost completely from her love. Because Opera places the focus on the voice rather than the words, simple characterization become harder to find on the text. Not to say that psychologically complex opera charcaters don't exist, as Tosca and Electra more than resoundingly prove, but I often find the subtle shadings of character are drawn as much from the voice then the text. This might also be the main reason why, beside from one breathtaking aria, the opera adaptation of Streetcar can't hold a candle to the play.

[A Director]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 1:38am

A May 2017 Madama Butterfly production.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/arts/music/a-radical-redo-for-madama-butterfly-to-save-it.html

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/11/17 at 2:18am

Thanks, A Director, that is interesting. "It's a masterpiece, so let's cut it in half and perform it out of order!" Not that I'm particularly bothered: as with Shakespeare, the original texts exist and aren't destroyed or negated by experimentation.

I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish by making the seppuku "ambiguous". I always think Butterfly's suicide is her ultimate revenge on Pinkerton, something for him to live with from then on.

***

Sally, I don't believe it was I who said STREETCAR or BUTTERFLY is dated. My point was the opposite: that both works remain relevant as long as human beings have ideals and our culture understands the stage conventions well enough to create and enjoy the plays.

I was comparing Cio-Cio (I guess we're spelling her name with Cs now; my copy had Gs) San and Blanche in that both are betrayed by their own idealism and that's what makes them tragic. But of course you are correct that Blanche is more finely drawn; she is, after all, a decade older and a college graduate. And she is betrayed by being unable to live up to her own ideals of love and sexual conduct. Cio-Cio San is more a true victim, though in the Greek sense, it doesn't matter how innocent of bad intention she may be. She fails in her understanding of Pinkerton and that makes her tragic.