The "Rebecca" Saga Continues- Page 4

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 9:35am

Eurotrash, while your username clearly indicates you love these shows (and I love some European fare, too, or I wouldn't talk about Tanz der Vampire so much), it also gives you a built-in bias. Yes, this show has been better received than those shows -- in Europe. America knows little about it, aside from what subsets of theater fans who are into that sort of thing say about it. It's a different audience with different taste. We don't know, objectively, how a mass American audience would receive this piece. Point of fact. And for anyone trying to choose commercial product that would sell tickets, that's not exactly reassuring, is it?

 

What you're missing, or choosing to willfully ignore, is that Tale of Two Cities, Jane Eyre, Dr. Zhivago, and the like are floperettas that have one thing in common: they are exactly the same type of show as Rebecca, which makes it a hard sell. (Also, while Wicked has some superficial similarities to this type of product, I certainly would not class it in the same category -- for one thing, it's much lighter than the other examples you cited, and feels more like a traditional book musical than a pop opera of any kind.)

 

Good show, bad show, the point is it's surrounded by bad luck and led by a producer who has had an uninterrupted string of zero success, at least in recent years, and can't seem to get a break with this, his latest project, either. Good intentions, bad intentions, the odds are stacked against it in a most peculiar fashion unrelated to the usual odds of success.

Updated On: 2/16/16 at 09:35 AM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 10:02am

"what ARE we saying?"

poor judgment? tone deafness? lack of business acumen? 

And let me quickly add, I am not referring to the choice of material some in this thread are discussing. 

[newintown]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 10:22am

"But if we're not accusing Ben of corruption, what ARE we saying?"

 

I said nothing about corruption, although I detect definite whiffs of that. But all one needs is the ability to read to see that Sprecher has been delightfully incompetent as a commercial producer, with such bizarre flops to his credit as The Blonde in the Thunderbird (an expensive showcase for a fifth-rate camp no-talent), American Buffalo (an unnecessarily bloated revival of a tiny off-Broadway play featuring 2/3 of a cast that couldn't act), and the aforementioned debacle revival of Brighton Beach Memoirs/Broadway Bound. The one show that he produced that may have made a small profit was a facile and unfunny, dinner-theatre quality revival of The Odd Couple starring a famous and overrated duo.

 

As for his Off-Broadway career - I enjoyed several shows at the Promenade back in the 80s, but nothing much at the Variety Arts and nothing at all at the awful Little Shubert, and anyway, those were strictly rental houses, not producing companies. Sprecher was nothing more than a landlord. And those venues are dead and gone.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 1:15pm

This is a type of show Wildhorn would have done. We all know how critics love him. In addition, there is simply to much bad publicity in the past for the critics to pass up. Someone previously mentioned the Nederlander Curse. As we all know, there is no such thing as cursed theaters as I have been told ad nauseum.

 

This is the old type of Broadway. Show by show, these types of musicals are dying on the vine. Hamilton & shows like it are the future - whether or not they are your cup of tea.

Updated On: 2/16/16 at 01:15 PM

[philly03]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 2:05pm

The other thing is that many people involved within production behind the scenes aren't actively working with Rebecca anymore (apart from Ben, Louisa, etc)... The last I heard from anyone with production said the rights were to expire (AGAIN) from VWB at the conclusion of this season as the final offer. Now I'm sure Hamilton (and Waitress, to an extent) have scared any further producers/investors signing on for this season. I guess VWB is being nice or realize no other production company in America will give it the high profile production it needs for licensing from two unknown composer-lyricists.

 

I think this is one of the better "poprettas" out there (Jane Eyre too), but I agree. It's lengthy, totally sung through, and the orchestrations are not what Broadway wants. Les Mis, Phantom are huge brands -- didn't Miss Saigon not last terrible long in the West End revival, for example? 

 

Hamilton was another nail in an already sealed coffin on the genre. 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 6:18pm

OK, so we think REBECCA is and was always a long shot. Is that any reason to root against it?

 

I understand hating a show that one feels is over-praised, because such shows tend inspire imitations. God know ALW gave us decades of over-produced but musically and especially lyrically mediocre schlock.

 

But REBECCA has achieved no such influence in this country, and general consensus here is that it won't. So it seems a waste of people's disdain.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 6:22pm

Did not diss it. I was just stating certain factors.Honeymoon was the subject for possibly the longest thread in BE A history. People were rooting for it to close. People used to crap all over Wildhorn. Nothing I said would ever equal crap thrown at various shows in the past.

[philly03]

Posted: 2/16/16 at 11:44pm

I think there tends to be a dislike for Euro-musicals, but I think prior to the "scandal" people weren't necessarily against it. I think there's a fair amount of people rooting for it (far more than Tale of Two Cities, Dr. Zhivago, etc).

Off topic/For the record - I think a lot of the hate for Honeymoon in Vegas can be attributed to JRB's attitude that his works are such high art, when in reality it was an bad show, with a pedestrian score based on a dated 90s movie - and he had already used two dated, obscure 80s/90s movies (Urban Cowboy, Bridges, etc).  

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 12:03am

Totally disagree re your assessment of JRB.Hard to believe Brantley gave it a rave if it was as bad as you claim it was.Won a Tony for Bridges which is also hard to believe if he is as bad as you say he is.

 

It us your opinion which is just that your opinion.

 

[broadwayboy223]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 12:12am

IMO Insulting Bridges kind of makes me mad. I think its one of the best scores to come up in recent times. I can't speak for Honeymoon since I haven't listened to it or seen any clips. As for Rebecca, I hope it will get to the US at some point. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 12:20am

IIRC (and I do) the never ending thread on Honeymoon was a function of its never ending flop run, not the show's merits or lack thereof. Pathos is a sure bet to attract attention. 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 12:25am

That never-ending Honeymoon thread was a lot of fun, I wish it hadn't been deleted.


I was a huge fan of Bridges' score (and I'm a fan of some of JRB's other work) and was very excited for Honeymoon in Vegas. I bought the recording the day it came out, listened to it...thought "maybe I just didn't pay enough attention," so I listened to it again...I was sad because I just didn't think it was very good.

[philly03]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 12:40am

BTW - I'm not insulting Bridges' score: I've posted several times on here (I'm sure you all known I praise Wildhorn's scores and rarely others publicly) that I think Bridges' score is one of the best of the past decade. "It All Fades Away" in particular is in my top 5 all time B'way songs.

 

I think JRB putting down other composers is particularly ugly (Alan Menken, Wildhorn, etc) to make himself look better than he is (everyone of his shows has been a short-running total flop - the others have had several over 100 (yes that number is correct) performances). 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 12:57am

The issue with Brown is that he wants to be a rich writer of commercial musical and he doesn't have those chops. He's a non-profit dude. Some people like his work, some don't but until he stops trying to fit square pegs in round holes he will remain kinda pathetic.

[Eurotrash]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 5:14am

"What you're missing, or choosing to willfully ignore, is that Tale of Two Cities, Jane Eyre, Dr. Zhivago, and the like are floperettas that have one thing in common: they are exactly the same type of show as Rebecca, which makes it a hard sell."

Ahem, no, that's exactly the point I was making.

[newintown]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 7:56am

I love the never-ending Wildhorn and Brown discussions! Here's my contribution:

 

Wildhorn is relatively musically illiterate, but can pen a perfectly decent pedestrian tune (and is smart enough to hire arrangers who can fix his illiterate work); unfortunately, he always hitches his wagon to bad lyricists and book writers. Jekyll & Hyde and Scarlet Pimpernel are silly fluffs of unintentional camp; Civil War isn't even a show; Wonderland is a grotesque piece of amateurism in every way; Bonnie and Clyde is the ultimate childlike dumbing-down of a deep, dark story - like a musical comedy adaptation of Shoah.

 

Brown is an obnoxiously self-promoting, egocentric ass who is musically quite literate but is also a sloppy and sentimental teenager when it comes to writing lyrics. I'm not quite sure why Honeymoon flopped; I didn't think it was good, but it did seem to be the sort of thing that the tourists would embrace with casual enthusiasm. Bridges, on the other hand, is an evening of solemn-as-hell ballads about a woman who justifies having sex with a man she doesn't know by rationalizing it as "true love." There's no mystery why audiences stay away from that. 13 and Urban Cowboy were unbearably idiotic; Parade a noble downer.

 

Ultimately, the most interesting point about both - their shows always lose money, and yet producers continue to invest in them. It's like the theatrical equivalent of Vietnam.

Updated On: 2/17/16 at 07:56 AM

[Eurotrash]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 9:45am

Don't hold back... Hopefully we're therefore agreed there's little possibility that Rebecca would be a less popular entertainment than BOMC.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 10:00am

Philly

 

Was not aware of JRB putting down other composers. Here, on the board, it is a national sport to put down certain composers. We got away from the Rebecca discussion. I am not dissing Rebecca to say I do not think, in todays Broadway climate, it would succeed.

Updated On: 2/17/16 at 10:00 AM

[Eurotrash]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 10:16am

Nor was I, but he certainly does, having just had a quick rummage through his blog,.. 

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 11:09am

Eurotrash said: "Ahem, no, that's exactly the point I was making."

 

Really? What does this sound like to you?

 

"This show is also weighed down by the celebrated floperettas of recent years; Tale of Two Cities, Jane Ayre, Dr Z etc, which overlooks the fact that this has already been a much better received show - because it is a much better show.?"

 

To me, it sounds like while acknowledging that point, you're also injecting your own opinion that it's better received, better quality, different. That doesn't really matter to anyone who would be assessing it for commercial potential even if it was objectively better.

[Eurotrash]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 11:41am

I. Agree.

[philly03]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 1:50pm

Newintown: another great example is that Wildhorn shows have huge overseas lives, multiple regional productions, etc. There is money to be had there. How many productions of Parade, 13, Bridges, have you seen? The Last 5 Years, Songs for a New World is decent, but no where near the levels of Jekyll & Hyde, for example.

 

Also - I think even the reviewers back in the 90s acknowledge that Pimpernel was indeed intention camp. Do you not remember the song "The Creation of Men"? You probably don't because I'm not sure you've actually seen a Wildhorn show.

[BroadwayNYC2]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 2:12pm

The show simply isn't good. No need to save it. 

[Kad]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 2:53pm

This thing ain't coming to Broadway. Putting aside the fact it is now a toxic property, it finally being mounted will result in nothing but anticlimax. After all this time, all the intrigue, the product would be to be mind blowingly great, or else everyone will just ask, "why all this effort?" 

It already had one foot in a hole being an out of fashion show. But now it's an out of fashion show that managed to be a disaster before even starting performances. 

[Wilmingtom]

Posted: 2/17/16 at 3:45pm

Could it fly in Vegas?  They love spectacle, cutting it down to 90 minutes couldn't hurt, and if you could get a pop star into the lead...