Miss Saigon and racism- Page 4

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 8:24pm

"Also, the play is not racist. If you think it is, I would say the problem lies with your own self-image rather than the content of a musical play."

That line is classic privilege (and before you say you're not a white male, you don't have to be a white male to have privilege…we all do in some capacities). God forbid individuals within a community express their opinions on a work that is depicting their people. What it really boils down to is that you think your enjoyment and entertainment and fun should not be ruined. Your enjoyment is more important than the people actually being portrayed. Sorry if I think artists should be more conscientious when creating characters who are not of their background and try to avoid racist portrayals that have historical root in imperialistic attitudes. It definitely can be done.

Yes, my view is pretty cynical, but at the same time I don't think it's without merit. OK, so let's say for the sake of argument that I concede that the whole show isn't "premised" on that idea. However, the show's story hinges on the idea that Kim's son had no future in Vietnam (and Thailand too because all Asian places are the same and that's where she ended up) and he would have better off in America with a father he doesn't know rather than his mother. Of course to justify it, her life is absolutely hellish and there's just no options for her. Audiences, if they are buying this story or even just going along with it, have to accept those things to be true in order to accept Kim's actions as heroic or even plausible.

There's also the fact that the show was created by Westerners who thought they could take a Westerner's take on Japanese culture (Madame Butterfly) and just place it in Vietnam because they think the cultures are similar due to their race. I know there's some literature about how suicides are not seen as negatively in Japan (among other cultures) as it is in the West. In fact there are honorable suicides. However, Vietnamese culture is not Japanese culture. Madame Butterfly's suicide makes a little sense because of the idea of suicide being honorable exists in Japan (though David Henry Hwang takes that idea and inverts it on its head). However, there's no such history in Vietnam.

Updated On: 7/18/14 at 08:24 PM

[SweetLips]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 8:48pm

My goodnes-and no,I havn't read every word here but can certainly appreciate how many feel the way they do and so eloquently the way they can express these feelings.

I have seen Miss Saigon at the first preview in London and again in Bangkok. I went both times because I love the music. The story unfolds and I went along with it and got caught up in the drama and the emotions-I loved it, and until this thread did not reflect on anything that is being said here-and nor will I should I be so lucky to see it again.
Miss Saigon is a musical presentation of that time-that's how it was written and accepted and loved by millions around the world.

[Kad]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 9:10pm

"I'm sure new shows like that can be created, but perhaps your frustrated should be directed towards the Asian Americans urging them to create them?"

They are. Unfortunately, the general public does not hear about them. And they will only rarely appear on a prominent stage in America.

The work is there. The talent is there. Is the audience there? I don't know. Few big name theatres or producers will be willing to give it a shot.

Asian-American actors, needing to survive, can't afford to turn down well-paying productions of the same handful of shows.

As for playwrights, directors, designers - well... we have David Henry Hwang, the go-to for an Asian voice in American theatre.

To imply that the work isn't being created is disingenuous. It is.

[wonderwaiter]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 9:22pm

"your view on the premise is a bit cynical and even potentially offensive to many westerners"

Is this real life?

[Jon]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 10:07pm

David Henry Hwang gave us the "re-imagined" FLOWER DURM SONG, which replaced the original 1950's racial stereotypes equally (or more) new ones.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 10:10pm

Nobody is perfect. He's not above criticism. That's the problem with having one person be the token and designated voice for a whole population of people.

BTW, I'm quite unfamiliar with the reboot for Flower Drum Song. What were the equal or more stereotypes compared to the original?

I personally have a soft spot for the original, but I would never try to argue its virtues outside the music itself (some of the lyrics are laughable though) and the performers (both Broadway and film versions even though the non-Asian Larry Blyden played Sammy Fong in the Broadway version and the African-American Juanita Hall played the Chinese Aunt in both versions.).

Updated On: 7/18/14 at 10:10 PM

[Pauly3]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 10:54pm

"Is this real life?"

Regarding the comment you're responding to, it appears as though you didn't finish the sentence you're quoting - or maybe you did and simply chose to ignore the rest so your quip.....looks like a quip.

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 7/19/14 at 4:56am

Several messages have said the suicide seeming heroic requires the premise that life for Tam in America with his father would be better than life in Thailand to be accepted by the audience. But that for me is exactly the point - it doesn't come across as heroic because the audience knows that Tam might be as well off or better off with his mother in Thailand than with his father in the US. It comes across as a tragedy in which the character's belief and interpretation of the situation causes her to make a tragic decision that leads to pointless loss of life. For me, her decision is very similar to the decisions of Romeo and Juliet to kill themselves at the end of that story. I don't think that Romeo and Juliet presents their deaths as heroic sacrifices, but as tragic because they didn't have to make such a sad decision, but the tragedy comes from the fact that the characters could see no other way out of their situations, much like Kim cannot see another way out for Tam. The fact that she, like Romeo and Juliet, was wrong about her assessment and it caused her to make a sad choice makes it a sad specific drama about one person. It didn't feel to me like the show was implying that all Asians would be so devoted to their children yet tragically misguided about what the best course of action is. And the show certainly presents all of the caucasian characters as arrogant or clueless at best and mysogynistic at worst - certainly no race is presented favourably except perhaps African Americans as represented by John, although his buying time with a prostitute for Chris offsets that impression.

[Bob Smith2]

Posted: 7/19/14 at 6:47am

To discuss a play and reveal major parts of the plot during the discussion shows a lack of respect for fellow theater goers.

The length of some posts here shows posters are articulate enough to discuss matters without revealing the plot. Penn and Teller can discuss how tricks are done with other magicians without revealing how they do it to the public.

I guess many of the posters are older. However young people do not know the plot of Romeo and Juliet. Many will currently be studying the book in school. Then some old person reveals the plot on a message board !!!

[haterobics]

Posted: 7/19/14 at 7:04am

"To discuss a play and reveal major parts of the plot during the discussion shows a lack of respect for fellow theater goers."

The site does tend to use spoilers and such for NEW shows, just not revivals of 25-year-old shows based on 110-year-old operas based on 116-year-old short stories, when the discussion is an analysis of the text and themes of the show.

"The length of some posts here shows posters are articulate enough to discuss matters without revealing the plot."

When the situation merits it, they are.

"Penn and Teller can discuss how tricks are done with other magicians without revealing how they do it to the public."

On a television show where the point is to not mention it publicly, yes. Again, each is correct given its context. Watch a show about magic, you don't know how the magic is done. Read a discussion analyzing the text of a show, you will probably learn elements of the show.

I'd also argue that a thread questioning the racist elements of a show is probably something one shouldn't read at all prior to going, since you are learning what other people have found to be racist in advance, which you will bring into the show with you and question that element as the show is unfolding. Better to experience the show without that baggage, and then afterwards come here. So, anybody who reads debates about the themes and such of a show in advance... has opted out of spoilers being a problem for them.

"Young people do not know the plot of Romeo and Juliet. Many will currently be studying the book in school. Then some old person reveals the plot on a message board!!!"

So, there's no limits on when people who have experienced a classic work are able to discuss it openly, since someone might not know Rosebud is a sled or Bruce Willis was dead the whole time yet?!

Updated On: 7/19/14 at 07:04 AM

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/19/14 at 9:08am

If you are going to look at a thread debating whether a play is racist, or otherwise objectionable, then you should realize that in addressing this question posters are going to have to reveal the play's plot.

The analogy isn't to a thread about Penn and Teller. But to a thread about whether Penn and Teller's tricks are obvious or uncanny.

Updated On: 7/19/14 at 09:08 AM

[Patash]

Posted: 7/19/14 at 9:43am

As an American Caucasian, I am outraged at Miss Saigon. This show portrays Americans as being obsessed with riches to the point where even other races want to imitate us. Horrible! And it suggests all American soldiers were only in the military to get laid and get drunk, not help our country or other countries. Worse, it suggests that we place ourselves above other races, particularly the Asians and treat them as objects rather than people.

Yes, the show is racist, just as all shows are -- depending on whose side you want to view it from.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 1:03am

Ah yes. More talking over someone of actual Asian descent. Of actual Vietnamese descent? Why did I come back here... WHYYYYY. Thanks, GavestonPS. No one seems to have listened to you when you said it was probably not a good idea to tell people who to not be offended by.

I feel for you, VIETgrlTerifa. Let's just go see Allegiance together, shall we?

P.S. To answer the question asked of me long ago about Christmas Eve -- I did see Avenue Q, twice. It was fun, but I felt like if you weren't in on the joke, you were going to not take it the right way. But I didn't really like Avenue Q anyway (I didn't hate it; I just apathetically disliked it).

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 01:03 AM

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 1:23am

Haha, thanks LizzieCurry. "Why God Why!" indeed.

I'm not sure if Avenue Q aged that well. I saw it recently and even though I still really loved a lot of the songs, the show overall was flat despite some of the performances. I totally get what you're saying about people taking the jokes the wrong way if they were not in on them. I was still living in New Orleans when I first saw Avenue Q on tour years ago, and that "Mexican busboy" line got a lot cheers and "yeah!"s from the more…racist members of the audience. My friend and I looked at each other and just rolled our eyes.

Speaking of Allegiance, when is that show coming to Broadway? I feel like I've been hearing about it forever (thanks to George Takei).

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 1:26am

I wish I knew! I actually have never even seen Allegiance, but I'm going on the word of a few people including a good friend who's Asian American, works in theatre and prefers plays to musicals -- and she loved it. You'd think someone like George Takei would be a heavyweight when it comes to backers, but maybe that's not the problem?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 5:54am

Lizzy, VIET and others: please don't give up on us. For everyone who dismisses the issue of ethnic representation, there are plenty of us who are very interested in your opinions on that issue and many others.

And I hope you'll forgive me for pointing out the irony in the claim that "Westerners" are conflating Japanese and Vietnamese cultures. Of course, we are and that is a problem.

But at the same time, "Butterfly" was written by an American, based in part on a French novel. It was dramatized by an American and then translated and adapted by Italians to become the world-famous opera.

And then French and Americans adapted it again to make MISS SAIGON.

So calling all these writers "Westerners" is a bit of conflation in itself, wouldn't you agree? LOL.

(But I'll be honest: I was always sort of appalled at the idea of resetting BUTTERFLY in Vietnam. This is one reason I haven't seen the show.)

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 8:43am

It's interesting you say that, Gaveston -- because I own that "making of" documentary that chronicles the development of the show up until its original opening night in London. There's a whole sequence shown at Dewynters HQ with their graphic designer (Russ Eglin) going through old versions of logos until they reached their final helicopter design.

Even at the time they'd decided to set the show in Vietnam, there were plenty of brushstroke-style illustrations depicting a woman in a kimono or something that otherwise was way more Japanese than Vietnamese. I don't really think they cared about the vast difference in culture. It was just "Asian."

And when they talk about what became the final logo (the face in the helicopter, all in brushstrokes), they talk about how the helicopter also looks like an Asian character (as in, written word). VIETgrl, maybe you can shed more light on this, but since Vietnamese has used Roman characters for so long, wouldn't a character-based design for a show set in Vietnam be pretty much irrelevant?

The problems started, as you said, Gaveston, way, way back, continued even into the development of Miss Saigon's corporate identity, and last until today.

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 08:43 AM

[JRybka]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 10:20am

I recall that this was the basis for the resason behind them wanting to do Miss Saigon. Yes it is also based on Madama Butterfly but it was always what they said it was.

I know that this show has played all over the world.
It has played in many Asian countries, I wonder what the reception was there..

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 10:20 AM

[lovebwy]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 12:01pm

The show isn't racist in the least.

I can remember some people being up in arms about the casting of Jonatan Pryce, but other than that no. Not at all.

[Pasdechat]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 12:15pm

The show is what, sorry, most modern musicals are: full of (often bad) stereotypes and cliches. Before being racist, it is sexist: women depending on men to be saved. That's the case since Cinderella and always will be the most loved theme in entertainment for ages to be. Bad or easy cliches can be found at many other shows and films as well, e.g. The viallain being played by a Russian or German guy. MISS SAIGON uses all cliches that play to the masses: boy to save girl, girl to succumb to her fate and not find any other way than to give life to boy/ child, love despite hate and so on. that being said, I was still moved by Miss Saigon. I'm half Asian btw.

[lovebwy]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 12:52pm

I remember Colleen Dewhurst who was president of Equity made a big stink over the casting of the BRILLIANT Jonatahn Pryce as an Asian. What a big dummy she was. She actively campaigned to have Pryce removed and replaced with an Asian actor. How dare she.

Oh and BTW in 1970 there was a production of The Good Woman of Setzuan over at Lincoln Center and the actress who played the Chinese character Shen Te was... you guessed it! Colleen Dewhurst. You can't make this stuff up, folks! What a joke she was.



Updated On: 7/20/14 at 12:52 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 1:38pm

I believe you've been named the recipient of the Stupidest Asshole of the Week Award for that gratuitous, context-less and character-assassinating Colleen Dewhurst post, lovebwy.

Congratulations! It's a real honor on this board!

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 1:44pm

Well 1970 was a different time from 1990. You would hope they'd make some progress in twenty years and I am sure there were a lot of Asian or mixed Asian/Caucasian actors from the U.S. who could have done the part just as well as Jonathan Pryce's overly hammy performance by 1990. But then who knows.

GavestonPS, I'm only using the term Westerners for lack of a better term. I mean I'm a Westerner too since I was born, raised, and live in the U.S. I just have a connection to Vietnam through my family and how I was raised within my household and in the Vietnamese-American community. Anyway, by Westerner I only mean that they are a French composer and librettist duo, but Cameron Mackintosh was also heavily involved as a producer, and of course there is the fact that Miss Saigon is adapted from an Italian opera which itself was based on an American translation. So I could not just say Italian ideas, French ideas, American ideas, British ideas, etc. I do think the orientalism displayed in Miss Saigon by the creators really stems from the time when American and European nations imperialized Asia in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

Pasdechat, I do think this conversation has been dominated by the racist aspects of the work, and maybe we should look at the sexism involved as well. However, I do not think that it is sexist before racist or that it is racist before sexist. I think it's all intersected and you can't ignore one while talking about the other. They work in conjunction.

LizzieCurry, excellent point about the logo! I didn't even think about that. But year, the brushstrokes and Chinese-style characters or Japanese-style kanji would be out-of-place in Vietnam since the literate Vietnamese people have been predominantly using the latin alphabet since 1910 and that alphabet had been around since the 1500s. Thanks for the background on the original concept art for the show. It seems like they just told the story that they wanted, set it in Vietnam, and tried to make it fit to their vision.

Updated On: 7/20/14 at 01:44 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 1:44pm

"What a big dummy she was."

And I thought Fred Sanford finally had the big one and went to be with Elizabeth in heaven.

[lovebwy]

Posted: 7/20/14 at 2:59pm

PalJoey I very much regret that you feel the need to personally insult me. I admire and respect you, so I very much don't like it.

Not one word I said about Colleen Dewhurst is untrue. She actively campaigned to get an actor removed from a show in which he'd been cast. A fellow actor. What kind of a person DOES that to another person? Tries to get him fired for a role he WORKED for. Especially when she herself played one over at Lincoln Center.

I know she died shortly after that. I can only hope it was some kind of dementia that led to her petty actions and comments about the wonderful Jonathan Pryce.