Miss Saigon and racism- Page 3

[StageManager2]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 7:06pm

KathyNYC2, why do you insist on calling it Ms. Saigon? Who are you, Gloria Estefan?

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 7:13pm

I didn't think the show was racist until I thought about how they adapted Madame Butterfly.

Why did they feel the need to replace the manipulative Western narcissist, Pinkerton, with a ****load of evil Eastern men? Especially when the setting, American adventurism in South East Asia, was ripe for treating Chris as exactly that: a manipulative Western narcissist. And doing so would have made for much powerful and provocative musical theatre - or just have made a hell of a lot more sense.

Why, God Why this Crap?





Updated On: 7/17/14 at 07:13 PM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 7:17pm

No, she "offs herself" because he refuses to take her child to America and the child would have been prosecuted and likely killed for his ethnicity. Just like in Madame Butterfly, neither of the women kill themselves for the husbands, thh do it for their children.

Cio-Cio-San ("Butterfly") doesn't kill herself because they won't take her son. In fact, Pinkerton's American wife, Kate, has agreed to raise the child as her own. Butterfly kills herself because Pinkerton has moved on and she would rather die in honor than live in shame.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 7:30pm

Gaveston -I was actually thinking of examples like that myself and if that truly is the issue, I can identify with that, but it never really came out as the focus of the argument. Should there be more musical theatre and other English-speaking media featuring Asian characters? Absolutely. Does the lack of them make this particular show racist? I don't believe it does.

[lambchop2]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 8:16pm

Chris was apparently much closer to Pinkerton in the original drafts before Maltby was consulted for the show.

According to the book, Maltby felt that Chris in the first script was "just another Pinkerton, 'an army ****," and he felt that Chris should be an "all-American idealist." Boublil felt he would not have any idealism left because of the war. They did another script where Chris was a starry-eyed good boy who was an "American innocent." That didn't work, and they met in the middle with the Chris that's in the show.

I think it would be hard for someone to say Miss Saigon doesn't have problems. It does. Especially with the lack of any decent male Vietnamese characters. Another being being why the creative team though that they had to bring in an American to consult because of "how sensitive the Vietnam War was for Americans," (to quote the Story of Miss Saigon) but didn't bother doing the same with someone from Vietnam.

To me, some of the issues within the show can be at least partially resolved with a good director and good actors who take the show away from the potential for caricature and bring more dimension to the show/characters.

In the recent Midwest tour, for example, the actor playing Thuy (Johnny Hsu Lee) took the character that I've only previously seen portrayed as more or less "angry and anti-American" and brought him to an entirely different level. He didn't show up and play the part of a villain--he showed up as a desperate, tired and agonized young man who went through hell just like Kim did, and was baffled to find her with someone he perceived as the enemy. Even in You Will Not Touch Him, he never seemed like a villain--the look he gave Kim and Tam wasn't of hatred but despair and pity and "how could you do this, look what you're making me do."

[darquegk]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 8:58pm

I think the Engineer is a phenomenally hard part to cast very well, because if he is too visibly Asian, or too visibly Caucasian, then he will seem to be on one specific "side" in the racial conflict. The Engineer is a character who is completely bisected by his dual natures, a constant sign and signified at once.

White and Asian. Idealist and cynic. Capitalist and Communist. Pimp and whore. Even his implied bisexuality makes him an outsider by making him two things instead of just one. You need not only a nonwhite performer, but a multiracial performer who is not immediately ethnically identifiable.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 8:59pm

Isn't this show premised on the idea that life in Vietnam is so horrible that it's better to kill yourself than live there?

Yeah yeah a lot of bad stuff happened to Kim. To quote Chicago, "Yak yak yak yak." It's just so typical for people to laud Kim for her sacrifice so her mixed-race son can live in America and lead a better life with his white father. No amount of America-criticism within the show can really take away that theme.

Updated On: 7/17/14 at 08:59 PM

[ggersten]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 9:13pm

>>In the recent Midwest tour, for example, the actor playing Thuy (Johnny Hsu Lee) took the character that I've only previously seen portrayed as more or less "angry and anti-American" and brought him to an entirely different level. He didn't show up and play the part of a villain--he showed up as a desperate, tired and agonized young man who went through hell just like Kim did, and was baffled to find her with someone he perceived as the enemy. Even in You Will Not Touch Him, he never seemed like a villain--the look he gave Kim and Tam wasn't of hatred but despair and pity and "how could you do this, look what you're making me do."<<

The actor playing Thuy in the new production embodies lots of turmoil and is not a one-note villain. His death by Kim is the most tragic of the productions I've seen. His anguish at the beginning and even when the Engineer finds Kim is felt.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 9:24pm

The theme is not about how awful Vietnam is. The Vietnam Kim know was with her parents in a village. The Viet Cong caused the "fall of Saigon" and burned down her village. Following the takeover of Saigon, tens of thousands of civilians quickly evacuated because of the political turn. They no longer felt safe, and many were trapped or tracked down because of their beliefs during the war. Especially if your child will be prosecuted and most likely killed at the hands of the government, Kim is desperate for any way to get her child to safety - and America is the ideal place because of her child's ethnicity and Chris. She did not kill herself because "life in Vietnam is so horrible that it's better to kill yourself than live there."

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 9:39pm

Oh please. My family is from Vietnam and were the people who evacuated for political and religious reasons. None of them would have killed themselves if they had to stay in Vietnam. Including my mixed-race stepmother who was raised in Vietnam and immigrated later. In fact, I still have family who live there and had the same reasons to leave like most Vietnamese who did leave.

But please, educate me more about the Vietnamese experience.

Updated On: 7/17/14 at 09:39 PM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 10:05pm

You're oversimplifying, VIETgrlTerifa. Besides, Kim is no longer living in Vietnam when she kills herself. In fact, she's in Thailand.

[wonderwaiter]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 10:22pm

Thank goodness we had some white men on hand to explain racism to the Asians. Otherwise this thread might have gotten awkward.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 10:27pm

@StageManager2,

Ok, set the story in inner-city Compton and have the main character (a "native" of Compton) kill herself so her mixed-race son can live with his white father in affluent Orange County. Would the story still be one of a beautiful sacrifice?

I'm sorry, I know these sorts of stories require one to suspend disbelief. But I think people fall for the "beautiful orientalism" of this story and use the war as some sort justification for the absurd behavior that's based on centuries-old stereotypes created by Western perceptions of Asian people while they were under their imperial masters.

Updated On: 7/17/14 at 10:27 PM

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 10:45pm

Wonderwaiter, I'm not sure if you were talking about me, but I wouldn't just assume everyone who commented is a white male. I understand your sentiment, but you don't always know.

[wonderwaiter]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 10:51pm

Sally, I was not referring specifically to you, but rather to an overarching mindset I was witnessing in a (surprisingly, unsettlingly large) number of other posters.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 10:54pm

I'm not white. I'm Latino.

[Sally Durant Plummer]

Posted: 7/17/14 at 10:56pm

Thank you for the explanation, and I do agree with you. Also, thank you for your polite response. It's nice to have some class here on BroadwayWorld. There's far to little of it as of now.

[Pauly3]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 3:39pm

"Isn't this show premised on the idea that life in Vietnam is so horrible that it's better to kill yourself than live there"

VIETgrlTerifa, I, along with all who I have ever attended Miss Saigon with, have never thought the intended premise was anything of the sort. Whatever your opinion on the racist aspect is, your view on the premise is a bit cynical and even potentially offensive to many westerners if you're inferring your view on the premise was by design - or not by design but viewed this way by westerners none the less. There is surely a western view (of some significant number) of Asian people that is incorrect, offensive and racist, but suggesting such a pessimistic view is "the premise" of Miss Saigon isn't any more cool than the racism perceived in the show.

[Bob Smith2]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 4:09pm

I registered just to complain about the casual revealing of plot in posts. You may have seen the play, however most people have not. And especially if a movie is made.

Do some people get a cheap thrill out of revealing the plot of plays to others ?

Also, the play is not racist. If you think it is, I would say the problem lies with your own self-image rather than the content of a musical play.

[KnewItWhenIWasInFron]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 4:53pm

"The casual revealing of plot" in a musical that has been performed and written about for 20 years is a problem for you? Then, don't read message boards. Spoiler alert: Romeo and Juliet die.

[Bob Smith2]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 5:33pm

So the other 80% of people who also have never seen the play are not allowed to read message boards either. If you enjoy this kind of thing, maybe you could get a job in the Tkts booth and tell the customers the ending as you hand them the tickets.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 5:47pm

"So the other 80% of people who also have never seen the play are not allowed to read message boards either."

Wow, that is an excellent figure you have just made up. It seems totally accurate. Miss Saigon is 25 years old. You snooze for 25 years, you lose. The title of this thread was Miss Saigon. You chose to click on it. You chose to read all of the posts. The end.

[haterobics]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 5:52pm

If you don't want to know anything about Miss Saigon, a Miss Saigon thread is probably not the place for you. Once you enter a Miss Saigon thread, I think you've signed on to spoilers, especially in a thread like this. How can you discuss whether the show is racist or not without referencing the plot/story/elements of the show?

When I didn't see a show yet that is being talked about here, and I want to remain pure, I don't click and read them. Pretty easy.

[oncemorewithfeeling2]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 6:08pm

I don't think any kind of spoiler is occurring when people are discussing a piece that is considered a modern classic. Miss Saigon is a show that a good chunk of the general public has some vague familiarity to. Partly because it's on a story and opera over 100 years old.

[oncemorewithfeeling2]

Posted: 7/18/14 at 6:08pm

Double post Updated On: 7/18/14 at 06:08 PM