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Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year- Page 2

Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year

singtopher Profile Photo
singtopher
#25Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 11:50am

I cannot comment on IATSE, but I refuse to let anyone say AEA is tearing down the industry, and I would be hard pressed to believe that they are any worse than an automotive union.


"If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it." -Stephen Colbert

Barney Stinson
#26Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 1:19pm

"Barney:
They probably only work that long because of the BS union regs that allow them to abuse the system.

If you'll see my post above regarding the Met, you'll see that's not the case. In the case of the Met, these men are essential to the productions.

And much like the articles cherry pick the highest paid, so are the posters here cherry picking the longest hours. Not everyone works that long of hours.

But, the highest paid are those working the longest hours. That's the point. Of course, not everyone works those hours - and those people don't make near the money of the others.

The few who work those hours are the few who make that money."

I think you are missing my point. First off 80 hours a week in no way justifies a $500K or even a $300K yearly salary. Those guys are taking advantage of union reg loopholes that pay extra OT, and other perks, when it would clearly be much much cheaper to have 2 people work half that amount each. They are abusing the system.

And it those men are essential to the production, then that's a just another example of union abuses. You can't have employees that are irreplaceable in those types of roles. Those are trades, and the knowledge would be easily duplicated without the unionized system. If no one actor is "essential" (and by that I mean irreplaceable), then the stage hands sure as hell shouldn't be. No stage hand or carpenter has ever sold a ticket.

Unions of course served a vital role long ago, they prevented the abuse of labor by industry. But the pendulum has swung so far to the other side now, that the GF clock has broken.

Seriously, maybe most stagehands don't make $500K, but the fact that there is a system in place that allows even one of them to do so is evidence that the system is broken.

- singtopher, it should be pretty clear, I'm not talking about AEA, or any sort of actors union. Whole nother situation. The market actually dictates actor compensation for many many roles, especially the most talented or famous performers. And scale is hardly egregious. I think some of AEA's rules are too generous, but actors definitely need protections considering that so many people would go on bway for free. Would be too easy to abuse the actors without it.

ghostlight2
#27Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 2:12pm

"If no one actor is "essential" (and by that I mean irreplaceable), then the stage hands sure as hell shouldn't be. No stage hand or carpenter has ever sold a ticket."

You are, as huskcharmer aptly put it in an earlier post, comparing apples and kumquats. Obviously, stagehands have nothing to do with selling tickets, but they have everything to do with safety, which to my mind, is far more important that selling tickets. The fact that you believe this:

"Those guys are taking advantage of union reg loopholes that pay extra OT, and other perks, when it would clearly be much much cheaper to have 2 people work half that amount each. They are abusing the system."

makes it very clear to me that you don't understand this particular situation. There's a lot of "if"s, "maybe"s and "probably"s in your arguments, and you have a grudge against unions, besides. You simply don't want to hear the truths that BosBroad and I are telling you, for it doesn't fit it with the way you demonize unions.

Nobody wants to work 80 to 100 hours a week for weeks on end. It might be cheaper to hire two guys, but in this case (which I have personal knowledge of and you don't) it wouldn't be safer or more efficient - so in the long run, it wouldn't be cheaper.

It isn't comparable to other businesses. Every show is unique and protypical. The inner workings of each theater is complex, as are the business relationships involved. It takes many years to figure out the ins and outs. These guys are well-paid because of their experience, sacrifice and dedication to the theater. I can guarantee you they'd be happier working fewer hours, making less money and spending more time with their families.


Updated On: 12/28/10 at 02:12 PM

BosBroad
#28Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 2:32pm

Barney,

Let me get this straight. No stagehand should be allowed to make 6 figures? Should we cap their salaries? Maybe we should all be made to sign an oath to this affect?

Who said anyone was irreplaceable? While it would be difficult, of course everyone can be replaced. Someone being essential doesn't mean they're irreplaceable. But why should they be? In their positions, they perform essential functions that are the linchpin of hundreds of performances (in the case of the Met, which is what I was discussing).

I find your kneejerk reaction to a few stagehands making good salaries to be absolutely perplexing. As I repeatedly stated, labor costs at LC and the Met (associated with LC) have absolutely not gone up. In fact, salaries generally have been frozen for a decade.

In the environment of the Met, it's very much a community. I have no doubt that if anyone - including the chorus members who can barely survive on their salaries - was bothered by the stagehands' salaries, we'd hear about it and something would be done. But, they're not bothered, and these few salaries - part of a $300 million budget - don't even make a blip on labor costs. They do provide safety, continuity and trust in performances with some of the most complicated sets in NY, however.

Why does it bother you so much that these people work hard and do well? How are they hurting you? How are they hurting anyone?

And thank you, ghostlight.

EDIT TO ADD:

Barney - if your problem is ticket prices, yes, they can be high. But, thanks to sponsorships and various other programs, every day at the Met 200 premium seat tickets are sold for $20. And, you can buy a regular ticket for $40. Although the top ticket price is $400 for a small number of select seats, the company also has a balanced budget and over 80% capacity on average. Audiences aren't being driven away.

At Carnegie Hall (which you seem focused on in your critique), you can see many performances for UNDER $20. Tonight, for example, you can see a symphony performance for $10. Very good seats can be $50-$80.

At LC's Avery Fisher Hall, mentioned in the linked blog, you can see the NY Philharmonic for $32, with a top ticket price of $112 and orchestra seats at $60. Clearly, these prices aren't through the roof. So, what's the problem?









Updated On: 12/28/10 at 02:32 PM

orangeskittles Profile Photo
orangeskittles
#29Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 3:50pm

They work many, many events in a year, back to back, and work very long hours, back-breaking, exhausting work, for weeks on end. It's high-stress and tough on the body. They don't have time with their families, they work holidays.

These posts are just as much a turn-off as the anti-union ones. As others have said, there are countless Americans who do back breaking work with long hours, and they don't make $300,000 a year, despite being just as specialized and high risk in many cases. I don't care if Lincoln Center pays their employees $300,000 a year, it's their prerogative, but don't suggest stagehands deserve that income simply because it's a difficult job. It's an insult to hundreds of thousands of American laborers with comparable training, work and risk, who are barely scraping by.


Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how

ghostlight2
#30Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 4:17pm

I'm glad you brought that point up, orangeskittles - but the argument that stagehands shouldn't be paid the wages they get because others that also work hard don't make a comparable wage makes no sense at all to me. Doesn't it make more sense for those American laborers with comparable training, work and risk should be paid much higher wages, instead of the stagehands being paid less?

eta: a stagehand employed on a Broadway show full-time, doing no other work, will not make six figures. It's only the highly specialized ones that make the high numbers that the press loves to write about (and some people love to rail about) that you ever hear about. Also, remember that most stagehands don't have full-time jobs, but rather catch work where they can. It can be a very dangerous job. Every year, stagehands suffer career-ending injuries, but you never hear about that. Yes, other Americans also have dangerous jobs, but the solution is to see that they get paid more, even, dare I say it - unionize so that they have safer working conditions and fairer wages.



Updated On: 12/28/10 at 04:17 PM

orangeskittles Profile Photo
orangeskittles
#31Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 5:02pm

I'm not saying stagehands should be paid less, I'm saying I think the pity argument is counter-productive, because people aren't going to feel bad that propmasters making $300,000 a year can't join their families for summer in the Hamptons before their children go back to private school. It reminds me of that Chicago Tribune article where the college professor and his doctor wife complained that if Obama didn't extend the Bush tax cuts, they might have to cut the full time nanny's hours and their daughter's art classes. Even if it's only a handful of employees, they're still in the top 2% of American earners.

Defend a $120 tomato like you did a $120 theatre ticket and then I'll concede that unionizing and paying everyone more is the easier solution than just cutting back on the sob stories to defend the fact some of these stagehands are overpaid.


Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how

ghostlight2
#32Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 5:42pm

Perhaps you've confused me with someone else. I have never in my life defended a $120 theatre ticket - but a really good organic heirloom tomato from a small farm is worth more than the flavorless mass-produced ones, if you ask me.

In any case, I'm simply stating facts. I can't do anything about it if you see that as "sob stories" or an attempt to garner pity, but since I'm not one of those top wage earners, I don't have any need to. Recognizing that these guys work very hard for their money is not the same thing as asking you to pity them.

The "average" stagehand also works long hours, especially during production, without cracking six figures. That's just the nature of the business. Recognizing that fact is not asking for pity.

massofmen
#33Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 10:56pm

ummm i am sure the 40k that that stagehand made was NOT on a broadway stage. He was probably at bucks county playhouse and again, he almost made as much as a teacher making 40k a year.

sooo no one wants to talk about how much extra they make mopping a stage every week huh...knew it..

ghostlight2
#34Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 11:17pm

Do you lack reading comprehension skills? You say you can't find a story about a stagehand making $40,000, when it was in the very story you posted yourself, and I've already responded to the mopping issue - or did you miss that in your rush to bash?

Don't kid yourself. You don't want to talk. You just want to trash talk.

JacksonMaine
#35Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/28/10 at 11:45pm

I am actually somewhere in the middle on this. Like ghostlight2 (a fascinating name) I, too, am in a position to know something about this issue. One minor correction: A stagehand employed on a Broadway show full-time, doing no other work, can indeed make six figures, depending upon their status and which show they are working on. I am including overtime, which is all but inevitable on long running shows. But most don't, and that is true.

I have no problem with stagehands making a decent salary. As has been pointed out, they are skilled tradesmen (and women) and have to catch work where they can. In that respect they are like an actor or musician. But like actors and musicians, this is the industry they chose. It is a volatile industry with a high turnover rate. If you want security, you are much better off choosing another profession. Almost any other profession, in fact.

The idea that it can be a 'very dangerous job' is a bit of a stretch, at least for most of them. It is certainly less dangerous than many other jobs which pay considerably less money. I'm not saying that to demean them in any way, and there is always some risk to any job, I suppose, but to imply that career ending injuries are happening on a regular basis is just not the case.

Are Broadway tickets too high? Absolutely. Are unions at fault for some of this? Definitely. Are producers more at fault? Definitely. But the complexities of the situation are simply too...well, complex.....to hope to resolve on a chat board.

ghostlight2
#36Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/29/10 at 12:46am

Thanks, JacksonMaine. Yes, your qualification that a few stagehands can pull down a low six figures if employed full-time on a show is correct - if they're a house head (who works at a higher rate), or working someplace like the Vivian Beaumont, which occasionally has an event regularly scheduled on their dark night, or are for some reason doing a lot of overtime - but as you say, most don't.

And certainly there are far more dangerous, much lower paying jobs (coal mining comes immediately to mind). I will stand my ground, though, on the career-ending injuries. I can easily think of an example of this happening at least once a year going back about ten years, in NYC. That qualifies as a regular basis for me. As to whether the job can be at times dangerous, I have to stick by that as well. One stagehand is now a paraplegic due to an accident. Another shattered his legs so badly in a fall that he had to have several surgeries. Obviously, neither ever worked again. Other, lesser broken bones, fractures, concussions, and injuries requiring stitches are not rare. Cuts and bruises are commonplace.

As you say, it is a complex issue, and as a result it is difficult to discuss on a message board. I would like to thank you for your courteous, thoughtful post, and welcome to the board.
Updated On: 12/29/10 at 12:46 AM

allofmylife Profile Photo
allofmylife
#37Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/29/10 at 3:49am

These guys operate massive lifts and fly systems which hang tons of equipment over the heads of stagefulls of actors every night; they control thousands of volts of live electricity, elevators, turntables and float tons of equipment on-and-off stages full of performers. At any moment, one bad move, one bad decision and people can literally die.

The IA guys are worth every penny they are paid.

And just like a doctor (who you'd like to be fully trained before he cuts out your appendix) crew members spend years in their craft before theyare placed in positions that require those life-and-death-decisions.

Next time you're in the theater, look up and consider who you want rigging the stuff above you.


http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=972787#3631451 http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=963561#3533883 http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=955158#3440952 http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=954269#3427915 http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=955012#3441622 http://www.broadwayworld.com/board/readmessage.cfm?thread=954344#3428699

JacksonMaine
#38Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/29/10 at 9:47am

Indeed, ghostlight, I appreciate the back and forth of opinions, whether it be on a chat board or in a bar after a show. Anything which gets people talking about theater is ultimately a positive thing, in my view. The stagehands issue is a thorny, volatile one, and has been almost since the beginning of the last century, as I'm sure you know. There were certainly contractual abuses in the past, most of which have been corrected. I'd say that a good stagehand working full time on Broadway is probably in the $75,000-$100,000. I don't think that's excessive, for what they do. The problem, of course, is that few work full time.

I do think, however, that we go too far in the other direction with the 'at any moment, one bad move, one bad decision and people can literally die' argument, made by allofmylife. There are safety precautions which prevent this from ever really being an issue. Yes, if one is a homicidal maniac, I suppose one could cause an accident of that magnitude (as could say, a beserk construction worker with a forklift), but fortunately most of our stagehands are more reasoned beings. There are many reasons they deserve a good salary, but saving people from almost near certain death is not one of them.

Thank you for greeting me, I look forward to many hours of stimulating conversation and debate as we try and fix the Fabulous Invalid known as Broadway. :)

#39Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/29/10 at 10:03am

MassofMen, since you've brought it up twice, why don't you tell us your stage-mopping horror stories?
Updated On: 12/29/10 at 10:03 AM

BroadwayJoe3
#40Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/29/10 at 10:15am

As far as the mopping goes, I am just wondering how many people would work one day a week for free?? I didn't think so... The person that comes into the theater to do the mopping comes in one hour before anyone else working the show, for all 8 shows, which is two and a half hours before show time.

After he is done with the mopping, there are also seats to be checked, stage garbage removed and anything else that HAS to be done to get ready for the pre-set when most of the other stagehands start working.

The mop can't be done during the pre-set because the other crews are moving scenery, checking every light for the show and doing a complete run through with automation.

So please, if you don't know what you are talking about, just read the posts and move on.

And thanks to the people that replied that do know what they are talking about.

Oldschool
#41Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 12/29/10 at 8:19pm

Ghostlight2, right on. Thank you for your comments.

Lost in this discussion is a fundamental lack of understanding of the hows and whys of working as a stagehand. Most stagehands don't work anywhere 8 hours a day, five days a week. They do a load in here, a load out there, and so forth. They are paid a premium because they don't work in the same place all the time and may be out of work for long periods because there isn't anything going on to require all but the house staff to do the work.

Stagehands working a broadway musical show during the load-in and technical rehearsals are working 80-100 hour weeks: get to the theatre at 8am, do a work call until noon. Cast comes in at 1 and rehearses until six, return at seven and continue rehearsals until 11:30 or midnight, go home and do it all over for weeks on end.

When the technical rehearsals are over, and the show is running, those same stagehands are only working 32-40 hours a week, a show call comprising time for a preset, plus the running time of the show and any time after the show to do any necessary cleaning, land bags on the pin rail, collect mics or whatever.

These stagehands working the shows are the lucky few because they got a show call. That show call only lasts as long as the show runs. That theatre once the show closes and the production is loaded out, is dark until the next show is ready to go in there -- no stagehands are getting paid because the theatre is dark. The other hands that help put the show in move on to other piecemeal work from gig to gig.

For all the complaints about how a very small number of hands make large salaries (for which they live in those theatres), and how the cost of labor is what drives the cost of Broadway ticket prices, no one here has dealt with the fact that labor is at the mercy of the creative team and how well organized they are. If creatives aren't organized, that's going to cost money. If fitting the set into the theatre interferes with lighting or sound, and that needs to change, that requires hands to move those lights or modify those sets or move those speakers. Changes to the sound or lighting or set or automation require a lot of work and time and expertise. Then there are changes to the show itself that require rehearsals and that takes time and technicians as well.

There is a complicated vortex governing ticket prices, and as long as the public wants bigger and more complicated shows, the more its going to cost in terms of labor to build and run those shows. People want big productions with big casts and full orchestras. That costs money too.

No one here's mentioned the trend in pricing where the producers of shows like Jersey Boys jockey the available tickets to boost their average ticket price. They even have a sign backstage listing their average ticket price in whatever city they're touring in. I'm not suggesting they're not entitled to make money, but by the same token I'm unwilling to accept the commentary of some who've posted that somehow a few house positions that are statistical outliers are somehow demonstrative of the nature of the cost of stagehand labor generally, or necessarily have anything to do with the veracity of Trade Unionism and the rules of which are their to protect the workers. You have a 40 hour week because of Unions. You have workplace safety because of Unions.

There are work rules to protect the stagehands and penalties in the form of overtime pay to keep producers from running roughshot over the labor -- for example penalties for working late late hours that give less than X number of hours between the time they got off the night before and the time they start the next day which become particularly important when crews are overworked and tired and not as focused as they might otherwise be. They are there before the actors arrive and after they leave. These are easily manipulated into suggestions that the stagehands are getting overpaid when in fact the hands would rather go home, eat in their own home and get a full night's sleep. They are there to penalize the disorganization on the part of production rather than the enrichment of the stagehands -- after working so many hours, Uncle Sam takes most of the overtime and the penalties are in reality, blood money.

Updated On: 12/29/10 at 08:19 PM

ghostlight2
proptart101
#43Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 1/1/11 at 7:54pm

I always find it amusing when people fall back on the "No [insert job title here] deserves to make that kind of money!" argument.

Who exactly gets to determine somebody else's salary? This topic tends to come up a lot when professional athletes' salaries are made public - my response "Hey, if somebody offered me $5million a year to play a game, my only question would be "Where do I sign?"

An old mentor of mine once told me, "You never get paid what you're worth, you only get paid what you negotiate." In these cases the contracts are the result of an agreement worked out between the producers/theaters and the stagehands. All these figures were mutually agreed to, and come as no surprise to anyone who can read a contract. These stories get pushed out every now and again, usually when another contract is about to be negotiated. That's what PR people do - they create "good guys" and "bad guys".

Does a Beverly Hills plastic surgeon deserve to make 10X as much money as an Emergency Room trauma surgeon in Detroit? No, certainly not. That is merely a function of how much money there is in each community and business -

To the point at hand - yes, stagehands work hard all over the country, and make different rates. I am currently working full time on a B'way show, and my end of year pay stub shows me that in 2010 my pre-tax earnings were in the ball park of $85 - 90k.

Did I work 2.5x harder than my college roommate, also a stagehand, who is full time in a regional theater in the Midwest? Probably not - but I know the theater scene in that town and the only ones who make close to six figures are the General Directors and upper ups.

I have another college roommate who is currently on movie crews in LA. He makes about 4X the money I make working 6 months out of the year - does he work 8X harder than I do? No - there's just that much more money in Hollywood.

The idea that anyone gets paid what they "deserve" is absolutely ludicrous, and certainly not what a capitalist system is based on. In any field, large markets have higher salaries - (they also tend to have higher living expenses - my standard of living in the NYC area is about the same as both my roommates living in LA area and the Midwest.)

Doctors are good examples - those who choose to go into the more lucrative areas of practice in high end areas make more money. It's not that the Hollywood plastic surgeon is a "better" doctor than the trauma surgeon in Detroit - one could even argue that the trauma surgeon is a more valuable member of society in general. It certainly isn't MY place to tell the plastic surgeon they shouldn't earn the money they earn.


"It's never too late to have a happy childhood. " - Tom Robbins

massofmen
#44Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 1/2/11 at 1:16pm

supply and demand economics.

boydowncenter2
#45Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 1/2/11 at 2:15pm

this entire thread has been a fascinating read for me. i had no idea about so much that has been mentioned. the amount of knowledge regarding the matter that some of you have is so impressive. (both sides of the discussion) much respect. and thank you for breaking it all down for a chorus boy like me.

Necromancer07707 Profile Photo
Necromancer07707
#46Average stagehand at Lincoln Center in NYC makes $290K a year
Posted: 1/5/11 at 9:59pm

Communism is the solution.

No, really. It is.


"I am ready to disclaim my opinion, even of yesterday, even of 10 minutes ago, because all opinions are relative. One lives in a field of influences, one is influenced by everyone one meets, everything is an exchange of influences, all opinions are derivative. Once you deal a new deck of cards, you've got a new deck of cards." — Peter Brook