Sweeney Todd - A Little Priest Question- Page 3

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:58am

It's a little obscure and may relate to laws of the time, but at least it's a tangible idea. I could get on board with that.

[morosco]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:03am

Okay while we're at it here's one that has always intrigued me.

Well, then, if you're British and loyal,
You might enjoy Royal Marine!
Anyway, it's clean.
Though of course, it tastes of wherever it's been!

Clearly "Marine" rhymes with "clean" but "been" only rhymes with "clean" if it's sung with a British accent. Is that truly the way "been" would be pronounced with an accent?

[helvizz]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:05am

I've always interpreted the 'being close' line as 'having a strong bond with someone' because of the 'ain't like being true': one may think someone is a friend of theirs, but this person does not care at all about them, which I think is the case: he means that Sweeney's feelings for Mrs. Lovett are a sham.

Just my interpretation :)


And, morosco, to answer your question, here are some people pronouncing the word 'been': http://pt.forvo.com/word/been/#en . Eveningstar, who is from Canada, also pronounces it like 'bean'. Toddmichael, who's from Australia, pronounces it the same way. But, yes, people with british accent pronounce been like bean.



Updated On: 5/19/14 at 11:05 AM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:06am

Also, they're able to keep up appearances because he lives and works about the shop. By the sea, they would be living in a house together, so they'd need to have the benefit of marriage for propriety's sake, if not for any legal reason.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:19am

I always wonder why it's okay for Sweeney to have an American accent. If Len Cariou used a British, or Australian accent, would all subsequent Sweeneys?

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:28am

Maybe it’s justifying a choice I don’t agree with, but I’ve sometimes thought of it as a way to further isolate or other-ize Sweeney in his madness.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:41am

I think it's because Cariou was bad at accents.

[Comden Green]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:51am

"BTW, in regards to Henry Higgins, it has always bothered me that he sings "If I was a woman..." when correct English would require him to sing "If I WERE a woman."

distinctive baritone, I don't believe you are correct. were is used with a plural pronoun: I was, he was, we were, they were except, I suppose, for 2nd person singular?? you were

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:53am

Baritone is correct: that sentence requires the subjective mood, because the conditional statement is contrary to known fact. Another example is "If I Were King of the Forest."


Updated On: 5/19/14 at 11:53 AM

[helvizz]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 11:54am

When it's a hypothetical situation (and 'if I was/were...' is), one should use 'were'.

[devonian.t]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 1:34pm

This is known as the subjunctive...

'If I were a rich man' would be the correct grammatical statement.

And to confirm as an English person, 'been' rhymes perfectly with 'clean in Standard British English.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 5:02pm

Whether a politician stands or runs, why is it funny to put him on a bun?

And does it make any difference if that bun is a savoury item in McDonalds or an indulgence in the village tea rooms?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 5:22pm

Mrs. Lovett says the politician might have been so oily that they would have to serve it on a doily.

Sweeney suggests the doily would not be absorbent enough to catch all the grease, so she'd better put it on a bun, which would absorb more of the dripping grease.

He suggests doing it preemptively, because you can never tell when the oil of the politician is going to run.

(Nothing ruins a good joke more than an explanation...)

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 5:46pm

Thank you PJ.

Best stick to the savoury bun then.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 9:48pm

There was a similar joke on "Roseanne," when she had the loose meat restaurant. "We're out of napkins, so I threw in a couple of extra buns."

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/19/14 at 10:14pm

I have always imagined Sweeney making half-hearted, distracted love to Lovett, the same way he treats her the rest of the time.

"By the Sea" was really a turning point in the show when I first saw it because it reveals that Lovett's insane quest for middle-class respectability is at least as bloody as Sweeney's desire for vengeance ("now and then you can do the guest in" and "bring along your chopper").

It was the absence of Lovett's frantic grasp for respectability that ruined the film, IMO.


Updated On: 5/20/14 at 10:14 PM

[Fan123]

Posted: 5/20/14 at 4:36am

I always heard the 'By the sea' lyrics under the assumption that Sweeney and Lovett haven't been sleeping together, and this is her 'subtle', self-preserving way of working on legitimising the idea of it in his mind.
The whole 'rumpled bedding' section reads to me as: "It's logical: you'd enjoy moving to the seaside and retiring. We could get along better doing that if we went together. Since we won't have a socially legitimate reason to be there together without a business partnership, it'll help us both to married - (ahem, and anyway we'll be having sex of course) - ahem, see, perfectly logical plan in all respects."

I don't know if someone like Mrs Lovett would care much about marrying Sweeney if she was already shagging him. To my memory/interpretation, any seeming glimmers of middle class respectability are revealed as just her being self-serving sooner or later - the way she says "Just the thought of it's enough to make you sick / And I'm telling you them ****cats is quick"; why she really wants Sweeney to give up on revenge for his wife and focus on their nice respectable business together; why she's really throwing the prostitute out of her fine etablishment. But hey, whatever interpretation helps each of us enjoy the show the most.

[devonian.t]

Posted: 5/20/14 at 5:09am

But the crucial thing about 'By the Sea' is that it is how Mrs L plans or imagines it will be. It's all conjecture- none of it has happened. And likewise her carnal ambitions on Sweeney..

There is comedy in her frustrated yearning for Sweeney's er... meat

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 5/20/14 at 4:21pm

I agree with those who say a wedding to Todd wouldn't "legitimize" bedding he hadn't helped to rumple.

"We shouldn't try it,
Though, 'til it's legal for two-hoo!
But a seaside wedding could be devised,
Me rumpled bedding legitimized!
Me eyelids'll flutter,
I'll turn into butter,
The moment I mutter I do-hoo!"

It's all phrased in the conditional. As single-minded as Todd, Lovett thinks she is actually tempting him with her vision of seaside respectability. And she is cautioning him that they can't be respectable as long as they go on living in sin.

Further, as passive and distracted as Sweeney is around Lovett, it's hard to imagine he resists her carnal advances.

For those of you who think Todd and Lovett are NOT sleeping together, where do you imagine Todd sleeps? In his barber chair?

[weaselprince71]

Posted: 5/25/14 at 12:19am

Oh lord, the rumpled-bedding argument, again. (No discussion of "By The Sea" ever seems to get very far without this debate arising). For the record, I personally think they haven't rumpled the bedding yet (and probably never will) -- she's deluding herself that that will happen, every bit as much as she's deluding herself about the seaside-wedding, picket-fence idyll to come. Both delusions are expressed as none-too-subtly dropped hints, and both are pointedly ignored by Todd. She's as deranged by her romantic/sexual fantasies as Todd is by his morbid ones, and never the twain shall meet, except as perversely well-matched business partners. In short, I agree with themysteriousgrowl -- "I sort of imagine Sweeney as barely eating, much less having sex..." . But that's just me.

As far as legality goes, I assume the "legal for two" line is shorthand for the impermissibility of an unmarried man and woman living together in Victorian England. Certainly the social "punishment" for such an arrangement would be disastrous to Mrs. Lovett's dreams of bourgeois respectability. And while I can't say for sure, it seems pretty plausible to me that it might have been technically forbidden by law as well: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/830





Updated On: 5/25/14 at 12:19 AM

[Rossinioperafan]

Posted: 2/15/24 at 7:31pm

Oh, but she has a very important reason to drag Todd to the altar, and one illegal as well: Lucy is still around, Lovett might be found out!

[Dreamboy3]

Posted: 2/16/24 at 7:19am

Yes I’ve always found his accent implausible but in addition to his time in Australia he has…sailed the world..from the Dardanelles to the mountains of Peru. So it at least makes some sense that his accent would be different from that of Mrs. Lovett given his time away from London.