Tootsie Is Closing

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Mister Matt
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joined:5/17/03
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Tootsie Is Closing #101
Posted: 11/13/19 at 3:13pm

It tackles some interesting points about divorce and what it does to kids. 

It ends on a really beautiful bittersweet note.


Kramer vs Kramer did all of that in 1979 with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep and won Best Picture.  By the time Mrs. Doubtfire hit the screen the subject was passé.  I'm not sure the divorce angle, a poignant ending or the dependence of Millennial devotion are the qualities that will guarantee the show's success.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian
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joevitus
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joined:7/10/19
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Tootsie Is Closing #102
Posted: 11/13/19 at 3:21pm

SouthernCakes said: "What would they have publicly posted?

If you can let something as inconsequential as a Broadway show cause you so much pain, then that’s on you. The show isn’t dissing trans people and frankly has nothing to do with them. Just because their foisting their issues on the show doesn’t mean it’s suddenly the shows issue.
"

I'd agree, but it's sort of the rule of thumb around here, so criticizing this instance isn't really meaningful.

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joevitus
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joined:7/10/19
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Tootsie Is Closing #103
Posted: 11/13/19 at 3:21pm

Mister Matt said: "It tackles some interesting points about divorce and what it does to kids.

It ends on a really beautiful bittersweet note.


Kramer vs Kramer did all of that in 1979 with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streepand won Best Picture. By the time Mrs. Doubtfire hit the screen the subject was passé.I'm not sure the divorce angle, a poignant ending or the dependence of Millennial devotion are the qualities that will guarantee the show's success.
"

I agree. 

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springwillcome
Understudy
joined:7/9/17
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Tootsie Is Closing #104
Posted: 11/13/19 at 6:13pm

First, I somehow missed RexInLights comment on this thread, which was posted before mine - they said most of what I wanted to and more concisely, so I do apologize for being redundant. But I will reply to those of you who responded below:

Get some good sleep, perhaps tomorrow your middle school will teach you about paragraphs, run on sentences, and.....

I’m 21, not 12, and if you can’t come up with a cohesive response other than mockery, then I have nothing to say to you (except Ok Boomer). Just because I don’t feel the need to write you a formal essay on social media / am younger doesn’t mean you’re inherently better. Get over yourself.

Can you explain what was transphobic about the show? Thank you.

Hi! The issue lies mainly in the man-in-a-dress trope, and the thread I linked earlier explains how that contributes to misogyny / trans misogyny quite well. I’ll also link the aforementioned review, written by a trans person, as I feel that’s better than me (as a cis person) explaining it. The use of "Being A Woman Is No Job For A Man" tagline in and outside the show is particularly noteworthy as that is word-for-word rhetoric that is frequently used against trans women. Article: https://www.americantheatre.org/2019/05/07/the-gender-problem-tootsie-cant-dress-up/

"Mocking"?  What comments were mocking those people?

"How long before the little nobody who wrote that ridiculous article about Tootsie being transphobic takes credit for this?", "Do they even buy tickets to shows, or do they just watch bootlegs?", and other comments in this thread that were said with the intention of discrediting and infantilizing the trans people who spoke out. 

The "Twitter thread" you posted appears to be just one person (you perhaps?) ......

Not me! I linked that thread because it was written by a trans person - I'm cis, I didn't want to speak over or on behalf of the trans voices that have already spoken out on this issue, so I figured it was better to share the points they already made. Thank you for the link though, I don’t want to beat a dead horse here and I do acknowledge that we’ve spiraled off the topic of closing. rattleNwoolypenguin‘s point is much more concise than mine, and is well put.

tl;dr: empathy and listening is good for interacting with ANYONE and key to being an ally. I don't want to spam this thread any more and I know my posts tend to be very long, so I will be done after this - if anyone wants to discuss this any further (politely, please) feel free to PM me

Updated On: 11/13/19 at 06:13 PM
cryan71
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joined:2/17/07
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Tootsie Is Closing #105
Posted: 11/13/19 at 7:36pm

Oh dear god, that American Theater "critique" has so many logical fallacies and false assumptions/conclusions, where do you begin?  It's like reading something on Infowars or Facebook pages about vaccines.   I've seen it quoted multiple times on twitter like it was the Bible or Koran when anyone asks for an explanation/reasoning,  It is such a poor deflection.  

Updated On: 11/13/19 at 07:36 PM
bk
Broadway Legend
joined:7/20/03
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Tootsie Is Closing #106
Posted: 11/13/19 at 8:50pm

So, we should now ban all the classic man in woman's clothing comedies?  Or not revive them anymore?  Not watch those films anymore?  It's complete BS and yes that American Theatre article is hauled out ad nauseum.  

cryan71
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Tootsie Is Closing #107
Posted: 11/13/19 at 9:05pm
Shakespeare is cancelled
sparksatmidnight
Understudy
joined:1/26/19
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Tootsie Is Closing #108
Posted: 11/13/19 at 9:36pm

springwillcome said: "Hi! The issue lies mainly in the man-in-a-dress trope, and the thread I linked earlier explains how that contributes to misogyny / trans misogyny quite well. I’ll also link the aforementioned review, written by a trans person, as I feel that’s better than me (as a cis person) explaining it. The use of "Being A Woman Is No Job For A Man" tagline in and outside the show is particularly noteworthy as that is word-for-word rhetoric that is frequently used against trans women."

 

To be fair, the tagline is only transphobic when you assume that trans woman are men. When you assume they are women to begin with (because well, they are), then it makes no sense to say that "being a woman is no job for a man" is a jab at trans women because one is simply not talking about men when talking about trans women and I think it reveals more about you and your argument than about the show when you make that jump.

cryan71
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Tootsie Is Closing #109
Posted: 11/14/19 at 12:00am

Don't try to explain it to the stan crowd.  They'll immediately declare you an evil cis and that you can't speak or think about these things unless you are trans.  Oh, and they'll throw in an "ok boomer" for good measure and think they won.

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springwillcome
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joined:7/9/17
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Tootsie Is Closing #110
Posted: 11/14/19 at 12:32am
I didn’t say I was choosing to interpret it that way, I said it is a real phrase that is frequently used word-for-word against trans people by transphobes. It is an insensitive phrase to use no matter the context. Tootsie even acknowledged this and removed their merchandise that used it so you really don’t need to die on this hill defending their use of it. And “Don't try to explain it to the stan crowd. They'll immediately declare you an evil cis...and they'll throw in an "ok boomer" for good measure and think they won” did I do literally ANY of that anywhere? I said Ok boomer as a JOKE in response to someone else rudely disregarding ME because of MY age. And I hate the term “stan” as much as you do but please continue to assume details about me and degrade me based on absolutely no information! It really gets your point across that you are so much more mature and better than me; I have so much respect for you now!
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ModernMillie3
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joined:9/23/13
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Tootsie Is Closing #111
Posted: 11/14/19 at 3:32am

No you don't, you're just mad that we don't care about your crap. The only part that I cared about (or read) was this passage:

"I know my posts tend to be very long, so I will be done after this"

Yep. Bye bye now!

Why not cancel the revival of West Side Story and give The Music Man the beauty that is The Broadway. Hugh Jackman and Sutton Foster are worth more than a sexual predator and a bullshit revival.
Gizmo6
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joined:6/16/17
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Tootsie Is Closing #112
Posted: 11/14/19 at 5:31am

springwillcome said: "First,I somehow missed RexInLights comment on this thread, which was posted before mine - they said most of what I wanted to and more concisely, so I do apologize for being redundant. But I will reply to those of you who responded below:

Get some good sleep, perhaps tomorrow your middle school will teach you about paragraphs, run on sentences, and.....

I’m 21, not 12, and if you can’t come up with a cohesive response other than mockery, then I have nothing to say to you (except Ok Boomer). Just because I don’t feel the need to write you a formal essay on social media / am younger doesn’t mean you’re inherently better. Get over yourself.

Can you explain what was transphobic about the show? Thank you.

Hi! The issue lies mainly in the man-in-a-dress trope, and the thread I linked earlier explains how that contributes to misogyny / trans misogyny quite well. I’ll also link the aforementioned review, written by a trans person, as I feel that’s better than me (as a cis person) explaining it. The use of "Being A Woman Is No Job For A Man" tagline in and outside the show is particularly noteworthy as that is word-for-word rhetoric that is frequently used against trans women. Article:https://www.americantheatre.org/2019/05/07/the-gender-problem-tootsie-cant-dress-up/

"Mocking"? What comments were mocking those people?

"How long before the little nobody who wrote that ridiculous article about Tootsie being transphobic takes credit for this?", "Do they even buy tickets to shows, or do they just watch bootlegs?", and other comments in this thread that were said with the intention of discrediting and infantilizing the trans people who spoke out.

The "Twitter thread" you posted appears to be just one person (you perhaps?) ......

Not me! I linked that thread because it was written by a trans person - I'm cis, I didn't want to speak over or on behalf of the trans voices that have already spoken out on this issue, so I figured it was better to share the points they already made.Thank you for the link though, I don’t want to beat a dead horse here and I do acknowledge that we’ve spiraled off the topic of closing. rattleNwoolypenguin‘s point is much more concise than mine, and is well put.

tl;dr: empathy and listening is good for interacting with ANYONE and key to being an ally. I don't want to spam this thread any more and I know my posts tend to be very long, so I will be done after this - if anyone wants to discuss this any further (politely, please)feel free to PM me
"

Thank you for responding. As someone who has researched cross gender in theatre ( Read Alissa Solomon) I don’t understand why the online and I assert it is the online community are so insistent that transgenderism is some sort of binary that implodes on itself could once a person has transitioned.

Transgender is an umbrella term that includes transvestite for example which are generally cis-gender heterosexual men. 

Cross dressing as an act in itself is included in transgender ideology, but some of the community don’t want to recognise this. There is a problem within the transgender community where some want to deny their trans-ness and view themselves as part of hegemonic heteronormativity. This is damaging to the whole LGBTQ+ community and has resulted in splinter organisations here in the UK. 
 

My belief is we are stronger together but the transgender community have to accept they are part of the large queer community. I further assert my point that Pose Fx while a fantastic representation of the transgender community has written out of history drag queens and trannies. Yes I use the word tranny because so many of our brothers and sisters self/identified as that and I am not going to write them out of history now to assuage part of a community that doesn’t really want to be part of the queer community but part of hegemony. 
 

As for the t-shirt I think it’s typical of the times we live in to find offence in something so innocuous. 
 

If people who are transgender don’t want to be part of the queer community and deny queer people the right to identify as they wish then they are no better than the oppressive society queer people have fought against for years. 
 

Drag queens (Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and/or Fire Island Widows) used the politics of cross dressing to advance the whole community. 

cryan71
Stand-by
joined:2/17/07
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Tootsie Is Closing #113
Posted: 11/14/19 at 7:10am

Gizmo6 said: "springwillcome said: "First,I somehow missed RexInLights comment on this thread, which was posted before mine - they said most of what I wanted to and more concisely, so I do apologize for being redundant. But I will reply to those of you who responded below:

Get some good sleep, perhaps tomorrow your middle school will teach you about paragraphs, run on sentences, and.....

I’m 21, not 12, and if you can’t come up with a cohesive response other than mockery, then I have nothing to say to you (except Ok Boomer). Just because I don’t feel the need to write you a formal essay on social media / am younger doesn’t mean you’re inherently better. Get over yourself.

Can you explain what was transphobic about the show? Thank you.

Hi! The issue lies mainly in the man-in-a-dress trope, and the thread I linked earlier explains how that contributes to misogyny / trans misogyny quite well. I’ll also link the aforementioned review, written by a trans person, as I feel that’s better than me (as a cis person) explaining it. The use of "Being A Woman Is No Job For A Man" tagline in and outside the show is particularly noteworthy as that is word-for-word rhetoric that is frequently used against trans women. Article:https://www.americantheatre.org/2019/05/07/the-gender-problem-tootsie-cant-dress-up/

"Mocking"? What comments were mocking those people?

"How long before the little nobody who wrote that ridiculous article about Tootsie being transphobic takes credit for this?", "Do they even buy tickets to shows, or do they just watch bootlegs?", and other comments in this thread that were said with the intention of discrediting and infantilizing the trans people who spoke out.

The "Twitter thread" you posted appears to be just one person (you perhaps?) ......

Not me! I linked that thread because it was written by a trans person - I'm cis, I didn't want to speak over or on behalf of the trans voices that have already spoken out on this issue, so I figured it was better to share the points they already made.Thank you for the link though, I don’t want to beat a dead horse here and I do acknowledge that we’ve spiraled off the topic of closing. rattleNwoolypenguin‘s point is much more concise than mine, and is well put.

tl;dr: empathy and listening is good for interacting with ANYONE and key to being an ally. I don't want to spam this thread any more and I know my posts tend to be very long, so I will be done after this - if anyone wants to discuss this any further (politely, please)feel free to PM me
"

Thank you for responding. As someone who has researched cross gender in theatre ( Read Alissa Solomon) I don’t understand why the online and I assert it is the online community are so insistent that transgenderism is some sort of binary that implodes on itself could once a person has transitioned.

Transgender is an umbrella term that includes transvestite for example which are generally cis-gender heterosexual men.

Cross dressing as an act in itself is included in transgender ideology, but some of the community don’t want to recognise this. There is a problem within the transgender community where some want to deny their trans-ness and view themselves as part of hegemonic heteronormativity. This is damaging to the whole LGBTQ+ community and has resulted in splinter organisations here in the UK.


My belief is we are stronger together but the transgender community have to accept they are part of the large queer community. I further assert my point that Pose Fx while a fantastic representation of the transgender community has written out of history drag queens and trannies. Yes I use the word tranny because so many of our brothers and sisters self/identified as that and I am not going to write them out of history now to assuage part of a community that doesn’t really want to be part of the queer community but part of hegemony.


As for the t-shirt I think it’s typical of the times we live in to find offence in something so innocuous.


If people who are transgender don’t want to be part of the queer community and deny queer people the right toidentify as they wish then they are no better than the oppressive society queer people have fought against for years.


Drag queens (Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and/or Fire Island Widows) used the politics of cross dressing to advance the whole community.
"

And here would be the Twitter stan reply to all that:

Ok boomer 

 

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poisonivy2
Broadway Legend
joined:1/3/16
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Tootsie Is Closing #114
Posted: 11/14/19 at 7:43am
I guess Kinky Boots, Mrs. Doubtfire, Shakespeare comedies and Some Like it Hot are all transphobic as cis cross dressing doesnt acknowledge the FEELINGS of the trans twitter stans.
rattleNwoolypenguin
Leading Actor
joined:10/11/11
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Tootsie Is Closing #115
Posted: 11/14/19 at 7:55am

There are some solidly bullying boomer gays on this thread. Yikes.
Gizmo6
Broadway Star
joined:6/16/17
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Tootsie Is Closing #116
Posted: 11/14/19 at 7:57am

cryan71 said: "Gizmo6 said: "springwillcome said: "First,I somehow missed RexInLights comment on this thread, which was posted before mine - they said most of what I wanted to and more concisely, so I do apologize for being redundant. But I will reply to those of you who responded below:

Get some good sleep, perhaps tomorrow your middle school will teach you about paragraphs, run on sentences, and.....

I’m 21, not 12, and if you can’t come up with a cohesive response other than mockery, then I have nothing to say to you (except Ok Boomer). Just because I don’t feel the need to write you a formal essay on social media / am younger doesn’t mean you’re inherently better. Get over yourself.

Can you explain what was transphobic about the show? Thank you.

Hi! The issue lies mainly in the man-in-a-dress trope, and the thread I linked earlier explains how that contributes to misogyny / trans misogyny quite well. I’ll also link the aforementioned review, written by a trans person, as I feel that’s better than me (as a cis person) explaining it. The use of "Being A Woman Is No Job For A Man" tagline in and outside the show is particularly noteworthy as that is word-for-word rhetoric that is frequently used against trans women. Article:https://www.americantheatre.org/2019/05/07/the-gender-problem-tootsie-cant-dress-up/

"Mocking"? What comments were mocking those people?

"How long before the little nobody who wrote that ridiculous article about Tootsie being transphobic takes credit for this?", "Do they even buy tickets to shows, or do they just watch bootlegs?", and other comments in this thread that were said with the intention of discrediting and infantilizing the trans people who spoke out.

The "Twitter thread" you posted appears to be just one person (you perhaps?) ......

Not me! I linked that thread because it was written by a trans person - I'm cis, I didn't want to speak over or on behalf of the trans voices that have already spoken out on this issue, so I figured it was better to share the points they already made.Thank you for the link though, I don’t want to beat a dead horse here and I do acknowledge that we’ve spiraled off the topic of closing. rattleNwoolypenguin‘s point is much more concise than mine, and is well put.

tl;dr: empathy and listening is good for interacting with ANYONE and key to being an ally. I don't want to spam this thread any more and I know my posts tend to be very long, so I will be done after this - if anyone wants to discuss this any further (politely, please)feel free to PM me
"

Thank you for responding. As someone who has researched cross gender in theatre ( Read Alissa Solomon) I don’t understand why the online and I assert it is the online community are so insistent that transgenderism is some sort of binary that implodes on itself could once a person has transitioned.

Transgender is an umbrella term that includes transvestite for example which are generally cis-gender heterosexual men.

Cross dressing as an act in itself is included in transgender ideology, but some of the community don’t want to recognise this. There is a problem within the transgender community where some want to deny their trans-ness and view themselves as part of hegemonic heteronormativity. This is damaging to the whole LGBTQ+ community and has resulted in splinter organisations here in the UK.


My belief is we are stronger together but the transgender community have to accept they are part of the large queer community. I further assert my point that Pose Fx while a fantastic representation of the transgender community has written out of history drag queens and trannies. Yes I use the word tranny because so many of our brothers and sisters self/identified as that and I am not going to write them out of history now to assuage part of a community that doesn’t really want to be part of the queer community but part of hegemony.


As for the t-shirt I think it’s typical of the times we live in to find offence in something so innocuous.


If people who are transgender don’t want to be part of the queer community and deny queer people the right toidentify as they wish then they are no better than the oppressive society queer people have fought against for years.


Drag queens (Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and/or Fire Island Widows) used the politics of cross dressing to advance the whole community.
"

And here would be the Twitter stan reply to all that:

Ok boomer


"

I only saw this boomer you speak of on this thread. As an out queer man I don’t think calling me that would achieve anything but highlight the lack of history these stans understand. 
 

Coming from a rural area where no one was out before me, 15 year old me over 20 years ago proudly held my head high and often sauntered down the street in drag. Most important to me was to find people like me and before I was 18 this was in literature and history and I work a lot on highlighting the history of the pink triangle in the holocaust. 
 

I’m glad Social Media wasn’t a thing when I was a teen, because while it may connect people isolated from minority groups it has stifled discourse. Everyone with a smart phone now believes their opinion is fact and right and to be followed. To back down when presented with facts and research by educators is seen as a weakness and results in doubling down. 
 

Fem boys, sissies, camp men, men in dresses paved the way for some of the freedoms we now have in the western world and to deny them their right to exist in their own time and space as they identified without reevaluating them with a modern lens is a disservice. 
 

 

cryan71
Stand-by
joined:2/17/07
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Tootsie Is Closing #117
Posted: 11/14/19 at 9:20am
Totally agree Gizmo6 but you can't explain that to Twitter stans. They will tell unless you are trans you can't speak on the subject.
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joevitus
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Tootsie Is Closing #118
Posted: 11/14/19 at 9:46am

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "
There are some solidly bullying boomer gays on this thread. Yikes."

If disagreeing is "bullying," I guess.

RexInLights
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Tootsie Is Closing #119
Posted: 11/14/19 at 11:15am

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "
There are some solidly bullying boomer gays on this thread. Yikes."

I don't know about the boomer rhetoric... but there certainly are a lot of people in this thread saying that people who were upset or hurt by this show are wrong for doing so because they don't see the issues that the upset folks see. We aren't all going to respond to art in the same way. As I said in my previous post, if someone is upset by something it is nobody else's job to tell them that they're wrong for being so. It's called subjectivity. It's called individual life experiences. But instead this message board would rather attempt to heckle and attack those who simply share different opinions. I don't care if it's on Twitter or otherwise. We could all use to accept our differences and instead say, "I don't agree but I value and accept that you feel differently."

Act like adults. Show some empathy. Understand that people feel differently about things. Don't tell them they're wrong for doing so. I shouldn't be surprised that another BWW thread has devolved into gross attacks and nastiness but here we are. 

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dramamama611
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Tootsie Is Closing #120
Posted: 11/14/19 at 11:37am

Sorry, there IS a point (as seems to have happened around this show) where people have gone too far in 'feeling attacked'.    Sometimes it is THEY that need to take a step back and look at the big picture.  

If we're not having fun, then why are we doing it? These are DISCUSSION boards, not mutual admiration boards. Discussion only occurs when we are willing to hear what others are thinking, regardless of whether it is alignment to our own thoughts.
Impossible2
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Tootsie Is Closing #121
Posted: 11/14/19 at 12:17pm

dramamama611 said: "Sorry, there IS a point (as seems to have happened around this show) where people have gone too far in 'feeling attacked'. Sometimes it is THEY that need to take a step back and look at the big picture."

The rise of narcissism due to social media is as astounding as it is scary. The fact that anyone actually pays any attention to it is even more baffling.

'I DEMAND to be called this!!!'

Congratulation, I still don't care about you x

Joe Mayo
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joined:7/28/19
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Tootsie Is Closing #122
Posted: 11/14/19 at 1:08pm

So to maybe turn this thread in a different direction, anyone planning on attending the last show?

Not sure how popular the back end weekend of the holiday will be or how many comps they usually hold back (if any) for show closings. 

Falsettolands
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Tootsie Is Closing #123
Posted: 11/14/19 at 1:16pm

Joe Mayo said: "So to maybe turn this thread in a different direction, anyone planning on attending the last show?

Not sure how popular the back end weekend of the holiday will be or how many comps they usually hold back (if any) for show closings.
"

I'm going to try to get a cheap ticket to closing. I caught the closing of The Prom (very, very emotional evening for the cast and audience) but I have a feeling this one won't be as heavy. I hope everyone brings their all.

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Tootsie Is Closing #125
Posted: 11/19/19 at 1:26pm
I found it a bit labored and I thought the score was weak. The actors were likeable however. The show will more or less vanish after some community and dinner theatre productions. Perhaps Encores will revive it in 2035. I would have done some cutting and taken out the profanity and genital humor to make it more family friendly. The opening number of act 2 was rather horrid. Santino was very good however he tends to push a little perhaps in an attempt to keep things going and he can speak at the same level (loudly) for long periods of time. I have noticed this in other productions. I preferred Dorthy over Michael because as an actor he was more relaxed.