(Almost) All White "In the Heights"?- Page 2

[blaxx]

Posted: 7/7/20 at 9:00pm

beatofthedrum27 said: "I also read that LMM said he’s fine with it because it could educate white teens on Hispanic culture which is great. I don’t think it’s a bad idea with the right people at the head of it because Latin culture is pretty under discussed. "

Read it where?

The idea of having to play a character from a specific background to learn from that culture is racist and unacceptable. Even if the creator gives you a pass, it is wrong - he doesn't own tje use of the culture.

This is for the same reason that black or yellow face is wrong, pernission wouldn't make it right, would it?

It seems that since LMM the Hispanic legacy is the latest fad that all white folks think it's cool to appropriate.

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 7/7/20 at 10:59pm

I directed an all black In the Heights, West Side Story, The Music Man, Sister Act, and The Wiz at the high school level and the only one that was problematic was WSS because of all of the specific racial slurs the characters have to yell at each other. Incidentally, when I was researching The Wiz, the only production I could find in my area was a suburban all-white production which was jaw droppingly terrible. Why they didn't just do Wizard of Oz I'll never know.  

Growing up, I saw at least five different all white King and I productions. I used to push back against these rules about only certain ethnic groups/races could play certain parts thinking along the lines of a teacher; it'll teach the white kids about this other struggle, etc. But then I saw that all white The Wiz and it completely changed my mind lol. 

[Ravenclaw]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 12:09am

When I first heard about these predominantly white high school productions of In the Heights that were going on with LMM's blessing, my gut reaction was a negative one. But then I heard about what happened in the high schools in the area where I grew up that were doing In the Heights--the demographics of who auditioned for the show completely changed because latinx and black students felt welcomed and valued for the first time in their theatre programs. And, anecdotally, I've heard that the experience was incredibly affirming for those minority students at predominantly white high schools. Doing In the Heights can be a statement to students of color who have felt that their high school theatre, music, and dance programs aren't "for them" that the theatre is a place for everyone. 

Now, I'm not sure that the gesture would read the same way--I imagine that kids today are more aware of the larger cultural debates about white-washing and what five years ago was a gesture that read as "you are welcome here" might now read as "your culture is our property to do with as we will." And as a community member, I certainly have no interest in watching white high school students pretend to be latinx.

But I think this is what it means when people say it's different at educational institutions--not that young people and their drama teachers should get a free pass to be racist, but that the good of serving the underrepresented students might in some cases outweigh the harm of inappropriate casting. When I was in college, my (black) acting teacher had his (multi-racial, about half-white, half non-white) class work on scenes from Joe Turner's Come and Gone. We asked why we as a class were working on this play together and he said "We've done Moliere and Chekhov and Noel Coward and Arthur Miller and all the canonized white authors. And the students of color who may not ever be in those plays professionally had to say 'what is the more universal lesson I can take from this experience, even if I'll never be cast in Tartuffe professionally?' So we're going to do August Wilson in this classroom so that the black students get to hone their skills on a writer they're probably going to encounter a lot in their careers, and now the white students are going to have to do that work of asking 'what is the more universal lesson I can take from working on this play?' And along the way we're all going to study the work of another great writer we all should be familiar with." And we acknowledged that outside of the classroom context, white people doing scenes from Joe Turner is extremely problematic. And we all approached the scenes with a clear and specific purpose, and of course no white students put on blackface or tried on a black dialect. Yes, whitewashing is wrong, but sometimes you have to weigh more nuanced factors in order to decenter white narratives and serve the entirety of your student body. When I was in eighth grade, our predominantly (about 75%) white English class read A Raisin in the Sun, and just as we did when we read The Merchant of Venice, we read the play aloud in class, with different students taking on different roles each day, because as our teacher stressed, plays are meant to be heard and not read. Nobody was under the impression that any of the white students should take their Walter Younger to the professional stage. 

Anyway, all that is to say that while the idea of white students playing latinx characters on their high school stages makes me uncomfortable, I do think that there are legitimate reasons why a suburban high school might choose to put on In the Heights. I hope that the decision is made sensitively and with clearly stated reasons, and I also understand why many community members will frown upon that decision, but I think it's a mistake to ignore the nuances of the situation.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 12:44am

blaxx said: "Sutton Ross said: "He has stated he's okay with it for educational purposes only, meaning high schools. Sometimes, the school district wants something modern over the same old musicals they've been doing for decades, and in some of those school districts the kids are mostly white. It is what it is. He gets paid, he's made things clear, so I don't see the harm in it as long white people are never chosen over BIPOC for the roles."

The fact that he's ok with it wouldn't take away from the embarrassing experience everyone involved in such production would have, including setting up an awful example.

Should white casts in high school do The Scottsboro Boys next because they are allowed?"

Obviously not, re SCOTTSBORO BOYS, blaxx.

But one difference is that "Hispanic" is an ethnicity comprised of people from various biological races (including Caucasian). So in that sense, white kids playing Latinos isn't the same as white kids playing African Americans.

We haven't traditionally worried whether Maria and Anita and the Sharks are all played by ethnic Latinos in WSS, and perhaps this is why.

Although we do have a tradition of non-Latinos playing Latinos in Hollywood and on Broadway, it isn't quite the same as when we had Caucasians playing in blackface while African Americans were banned from the stage AND the house!

So that, too, is different. But I wouldn't blame you if you chose to avoid productions of ITH with all-white casts. I'm not sure I myself want to see a bunch of suburban white kids take on that show.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 12:50am

toottoot said: "With all due respect to Lin Manuel Miranda,it thoroughly violates ethical casting code and only feeds into the violent practice of white washing. White non-Latinx actors should not be playing Latinx characters. It's really simple."

But Spaniards can play Puerto Ricans and Cubans can play Brazilians? Just how strict are these rules of yours? 'Cause I think when all is said and done, we're going to be left with a theater of one-man and one-woman shows, with the actors all playing themselves.

(To be consistent, I have the same question about a Japanese actor playing the King of Siam or a Filipino woman playing a Vietnamese girl. I can see the benefit in the sense that Asian-American actors tend to be underemployed and we want them to have opportunities, but is Ken Watanabe really more "authentic" than Yul Brynner? The latter claimed to be Siberian-Asian, but was widely thought to be Russian-Caucasian. Siberia and Japan are roughly equal distances from Bangkok.)

[blaxx]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 1:21am

GavestonPS said:  "I wouldn't blame you if you chose to avoid productions of ITH with all-white casts. I'm not sure I myselfwant to see a bunch of suburban white kids take on that show."

I WOULD avoid them. The list of musicals white high schoolers can do is so extensive, they don't need to dig into playing different ethnicities just to be hip. It's simply not right, and teachers are smart enough to know the difference.

 

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 1:27am

blaxx said: "The list of musicals white high schoolers can do is so extensive, they don't need to dig into playing different ethnicities just to be hip. It's simply not right, and teachers are smart enough to know the difference.

"

But the list of musicals that have music similar to what high school kids know from their radios and earbuds is NOT so large. I don't know why you assume the impetus for productions of ITH is a "desire to be hip".

[A Director]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 3:12am

GavestonPS said: 

(To be consistent, I have the same question about a Japanese actor playing the King of Siam or a Filipino woman playing a Vietnamese girl. I can see the benefit in the sense that Asian-American actors tend to be underemployed and we want them to have opportunities, but is Ken Watanabe really more "authentic" than Yul Brynner? The latter claimed to be Siberian-Asian, but was widely thought to be Russian-Caucasian. Siberia and Japan are roughly equaldistancesfrom Bangkok.)"

Why limit Asian-American actors to only musicals?  Not all Asian- American actors can sing. There are many Asian-American playwrights writing plays with Asian and Asian-American characters. Also, these actors should not be limited to only these plays.

 

[JBroadway]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 9:47am

GavestonPS said: "toottoot said: "But Spaniards can play Puerto Ricans and Cubans can play Brazilians? Just how strict are these rules of yours? 'Cause I think when all is said and done, we're going to be left with a theater of one-man and one-woman shows, with the actors all playing themselves.

(To be consistent, I have the same question about a Japanese actor playing the King of Siam or a Filipino woman playing a Vietnamese girl. I can see the benefit in the sense that Asian-American actors tend to be underemployed and we want them to have opportunities, but is Ken Watanabe really more "authentic" than Yul Brynner? The latter claimed to be Siberian-Asian, but was widely thought to be Russian-Caucasian. Siberia and Japan are roughly equaldistancesfrom Bangkok.)"

 

 

Because we’ve already had this exact argument millions of times on this board, I’m going to copy-and-paste a post I wrote a few years ago about the Prince of Egypt concert. This response pertains exactly to your question, but replace “Egyptian” with “Thai” and replace “Dominican” with “Japanese” or any other non-white ethnicity: 

 

The primary issue here is not “inauthenticity,” it's white-washing. The two issues are closely intertwined and overlapping, but not the exact same issue. If we're just talking about authenticity, then YES, having a white person play an Egyptian is just as inauthentic as having a Latinx person play an Egyptian. And YES, it would be nice to have a cast of people that have actual ties to Egypt or the Middle-East. 

HOWEVER, the really nasty part of all this is not merely the inauthenticity, it's the white-washing. It's the fact that White people throughout history have taken other cultures and characters of color and turned them into White people. Throughout history and even today, characters of color from literature, folklore, etc. are made white for mainstream adaptations. And when the ethnicity of a character is unknown, they are white 99% of the time. And all of this is happening while POC are struggling to be represented in the media. THAT'S the context that we're bringing to this issue.

Latinx people are POC, so even though casting a Dominican person might not be "authentic" casting, they are also being disadvantaged by the white domination of the media, so their being cast as a person of a different race is not contributing to the most prevalent issue. It's all about the context of the entertainment industry that white people have built for themselves. 

 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 11:10am

To me that is a stupid question- if it is an almost all- white high school- what are they supposed to do- bus in migrants from Mexico- stop the obsessive color counting and relax a bit.

[Carol Channing, or Change]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 1:40pm

What complicates the matter a little is that being Latino is not exactly a matter of race. My great-grandparents were born and grew up in Mexico, and their families had lived in Mexico for generations prior, but to the average American person, they would look white, and one of their daughters was even born with blonde hair. 

Being Latino is more of a cultural identity, one that has been lost on my family because when they moved to the U.S., they chose not to raise their children with their language or culture (which is a shame). That's why I personally don't consider myself Latino even though I trace my lineage back to Latin America and still have family members who live there that I occasionally meet at family reunions, because ultimately, I'm a white American who did not grow up with Latino culture (and my dad's side has no ties to Latin America).

Anyway, that was all kind of a tangent, but I'd agree that the characters in In the Heights should all be played by people of the Latino culture. I just think it's a little more complicated because they might not all necessarily look the same way (Latinos can be white, indigenous, black, Asian, etc.)

Updated On: 7/8/20 at 01:40 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 4:50pm

A Director said: "GavestonPS said:

(To be consistent, I have the same question about a Japanese actor playing the King of Siam or a Filipino woman playing a Vietnamese girl. I can see the benefit in the sense that Asian-American actors tend to be underemployed and we want them to have opportunities, but is Ken Watanabe really more "authentic" than Yul Brynner? The latter claimed to be Siberian-Asian, but was widely thought to be Russian-Caucasian. Siberia and Japan are roughly equaldistancesfrom Bangkok.)"

Why limit Asian-American actors to only musicals? Not all Asian- American actors can sing. There are many Asian-American playwrights writing plays with Asian and Asian-American characters. Also, these actors should not be limited to only these plays.

"

For once we agree. I only discussed musicals because the thread is about IN THE HEIGHTS.

I have no objection to Asian-Americans playing all sorts of roles that weren't written with Asian-Americans in mind. Lucy Liu as Mary, Queen of Scots? Why not? It's not as if any dramatization of the Renaissance is strictly Naturalistic.

Despite what you think, I am not the enemy here.

BUT MY POINT was the casually racist way we "define" race in casting. Asia is a huge place with billions of people of widely varying heritages. We (probably) wouldn't cast Kristin Chenowith as Kim in MISS SAIGON (or even as Serafina in ROSE TATTOO), but we have no problem as long as the actress who plays Kim comes from ANY Asian background, however remote from Southeast Asia. This, I suspect, is a temporary phase and we will eventually get more specific in our casting or drop the matter altogether.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 5:17pm

@Gaveston, did you read my post above? It addresses the concern you just raised again.

@Carol Channing

This is a good point, and an important nuance to be aware of. Many people from Latin-America are white, and some social-justice-minded people (including myself) occasionally forget that fact by lumping them all together, and considering all Latinx people “people of color.” When in fact, many people from Latin America are white, and they look white because they descend from white Spanish colonizers, rather than from indigenous cultures. And lumping the descendants of white colonizers into the same category as indigenous people is yet another form white-washing. So on this point, we agree.

HOWEVER, we know that the people in In the Heights are supposed to come mostly from The Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Cuba, etc. as opposed to places like Argentina where it’s more common to see lighter-skinned people. Plus, if we look at the actual makeup of Washington Heights (where I’ve lived for the past 2 years), the community tends to be made up of Black and Brown people, not White Latin Americans. So I think it’s safe to assume that the characters in the musical are supposed to be People of Color, even though — as you correctly point out — not all Latinx people are.

So then I would defer back to the earlier point I made about whitewashing vs. authenticity, but I’d amend it to specify that Black and Brown Latinx people are the subject of racism and whitewashing, not all Latinx people.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 5:24pm

JBroadway said: "...Because we’ve already had this exact argument millions of times on this board, I’m going to copy-and-paste a post I wrote a few years ago about the Prince of Egypt concert. This response pertains exactly to your question, but replace “Egyptian” with “Thai” and replace “Dominican” with “Japanese” or anyother non-white ethnicity:

The primary issue here is not “inauthenticity,”it's white-washing. The two issues are closely intertwined and overlapping, but not the exact same issue. If we're just talking about authenticity, then YES, having a white person play an Egyptian is just as inauthentic as having a Latinx person play an Egyptian. And YES, it would be nice to have a cast of people that have actual ties to Egypt or the Middle-East.

HOWEVER, the really nasty part of all this is not merely the inauthenticity, it's the white-washing...."

THERE IS NO NEED TO SHOUT JUST BECAUSE I DIDN'T SEE YOUR ORIGINAL POST. IF MOSES WAS SUPPOSED TO INSCRIBE IT ON STONE TABLETS, HE FORGOT!

Since your only concern is "white-washing", not authenticity, may I assume you have no problem with my local theater's production of THE KING AND I with all Asian roles filled by Latinx performers?

And, how, exactly, do you think the Japanese cast their countless productions of FIDDLER ON THE ROOF? Or the Takarazuka Revue's production of GONE WITH THE WIND, performed annually from 1977 to 2004? Yellow-washing, anyone?

The analogy isn't perfect, of course; the U.S. population is more diverse than that of Japan. But the point is that theaters everywhere are more likely to cast with members of the dominant ethnic group, if only for the sake of convenience.

I worked with the casting director of Yul Brynner's endless KING AND I tours and, trust me, she attended every elementary school production in Chinatown, hoping to find amateurs with whom to fill the roles in the show. It was not the case, in the 1970s at least, that thousands of Asian-American professionals were sitting around unemployed. I AM NOT SAYING her outreach work was a waste of time; but these discussions always take place with an assumption that there are crowds of highly skilled, unemployed actors of every, possible human variation.

I keep asking for numbers on racial casting on Broadway and I keep getting crickets in response. Is anyone sure that African Americans are cast in less than the 15% of roles their numbers in the general population might require? Are we still "white-washing"? We are at the celebrity level in TV and film, I presume, where it is assumed a white star will draw more than a black or Latinx star--but that's a commercial issue that isn't going to be solved by the casting of a Sri Lankan as Tuptim in a road company of THE KING AND I.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 5:49pm

Genuine apologies for giving the impression I was yelling at you.

White-washing is not my only concern, but I think it’s a more prevalent and insidious issue than inauthenticity. A production of The King and I performed by Latinx people of color would definitely not be ideal. Especially because Asian actors tend to have even more difficulty than Latinx people at being represented onstage and onscreen. Also because this would arguably still be an example of yellow face, which has a harmful history. In the same vain, an Asian person in Blackface would still be racist, because Blackface is racist. However, I think it’s better to have Latinx POC play Asians than to have White people play Asians, because then at least you’ve avoided whitewashing.

Authenticity is definitely something to strive for. But as you point out, it would be difficult to do a regional production of The King and I where every single actor has Thai heritage. So at the very least we can avoid whitewashing and Yellowface by allowing people of other Asian ancestry to play these roles.

As for productions in Japan of shows like Hairspray, etc. It’s a complicated issue because Japan has its own history of racism that looks very different from ours, and it’s hard to apply the standards of one to the other. Personally, I’m actually not sure where I stand on that issue. It’s complicated.

As for statistics, I can’t help you there. But whitewashing does still happen. Thankfully less so than it used to. But the harmful history of whitewashing still impacts our world today.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 9:21pm

JBroadway, I'm glad we have both calmed down. We really are not on opposite sides here.

If it were possible, I'd love to see every role cast with racially appropriate actors; it just isn't always possible. (The local production here was semi-pro--two Equity contracts per show--and the valley we live in has few Asians. The use of Latinx actors instead at least showed some awareness that the distinction between the two racial groups in TK&I can't be plastered over with greasepaint and ponytails.) Frankly, the politics of TK&I are already dated (all that "liberal" faith in supposedly "universal" values); I'm not at all sure it's a piece that will be widely done 20 years from now.

I am somewhat schooled in the history of racism in Japan. I agree it is both complicated and different from ours. I don't have a magic solution, but I don't think it lies in forbidding them from doing FIDDLER.

The following article cites a Broadway diversity study showing African Americans represented at more than twice their population in the USA as a whole.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/theater/study-finds-increasing-diversity-on-broadway.html

 

But I think most of us will agree that study DOES NOT end the discussion. For one thing, a couple of all-black musicals can tip the scales while leaving black actors who do not sing without jobs. There is no reason why the psychiatrist who comes to take Blanche DuBois away can't be African American, but I doubt many directors imagine him as such unless it's an all-black production. That's something we still need to work on.

Per the article, the numbers are not so "rosy" when all acting jobs nationwide are counted. Nor do the numbers of employed actors of color compare to the overall number of people of color in NYC. (This last stat bothers me less because Broadway doesn't look to cast people born locally; the performing pool arrives from all over the country, so comparing casting to those who are native to the city means little.)

And the study says nothing about off-stage workers, including the all-important "creative staff".

[Carol Channing, or Change]

Posted: 7/8/20 at 11:32pm

JBroadway said: "HOWEVER, we know that the people in In the Heights are supposed to come mostly from The Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Cuba, etc. as opposed to places like Argentina where it’s more common to see lighter-skinned people. Plus, if we look at the actual makeup of Washington Heights (where I’ve lived for the past 2 years), the community tends to be made up of Black and Brown people, not White Latin Americans. So I think it’s safe to assume that the characters in the musical are supposed to be People of Color, even though — as you correctly point out — not all Latinx people are.

So then I would defer back to the earlier point I made about whitewashing vs. authenticity, but I’d amend it to specify that Black and Brown Latinx people are the subject of racism and whitewashing, not all Latinx people."

Those are excellent points, and I'd have to agree.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 7/9/20 at 9:50am

I saw a production of Parade at a local school with an all-white cast. Although my family who'd never seen the show still really liked it, I felt like it was really missing a big piece of the story. I think I'd feel the same about Once On This Island, too.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 7/9/20 at 10:04am

Oh-  then to be consistent- I guess you all think Hamilton is racist because they cast people of color in roles that were historically inaccurate. I am all for racial equality- for everyone everywhere- but this discussion is racist in itself. If a school is predominantly black- or white- or Jewish- or Filipino- the cast of characters will reflect that population. So that is the end of that discussion for anyone who is not looking to talk about racism incessantly and obsessively- in my opinion. Hamilton was an amazing show because it broke color barriers purposely- and that added to the power of it- especially in this time of division- and of course, it was also a masterpiece. But, if we obsessively color count every situation in life- the cancel culture- to me, that is very unhealthy and counter productive to the goal of equality for everyone. Racism in casting is when you do not cast someone because of their race. I would love to see people cast who are the best people in that role. Of course, in Raisin In The Sun- it is best played by a black family- but if a high school is all Filipino- or Predominanly Mexican- I say- bring it on- let the kids explore the issues and discuss these issues with the kids.  Let's stop with all of the divisions and over sensitivities and begin to love and respect each other as human beings.

[Plannietink08]

Posted: 7/9/20 at 10:20pm

santeFEEE said: "An all white school wouldn't pick Hairspray ... and have the African- American characters played by White people.

They would and they have. Many times. I once played Link Larkin in an all-white High School production.  

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 7/11/20 at 1:03pm

blaxx said: "Sutton Ross said: "They've done productions of this for years in high schools, and no one seems to beembarrassed.

Well, they should. It's racist and inappropriate. Considering the immense catalogue representing the history of white culture, they have no business performing a show depicting the struggles and idiosyncrasies of non-white immigrants and their environment.

"

Exactly.  And it has to go both ways.  If you have a musical that takes place during a time period and in a place where it doesn't make sense to have black or Asian or Latino characters in a show, those shows should be allowed to go forward as is as well.  Without being called white-washed, etc.

That's why I agree with the black actors who have stepped up and said they don't want to be just thrown into a show just so that a POC can be repped.  Especially if it doesn't make sense.

I don't want to see ITH with a white cast either.  It takes away from the impact.  Just as I don't want to see Hamilton with a white George Washington.  It doesn't fit the mold of what was intended.  Nor would it be allowed of course.  I don't want to see TKAI without an Asian cast, etc.

Which brings up the controversy of Jonathan Price in Saigon, which I thought was pretty out there.  And the original cast of Flowers Drum Song which had a caucasian playing Sammy Fong.   Ed Kenney was at least part Asian.   But Juanita Hall was black.  So I guess the Asians have certainly had the right to beef over the years.  Because these were professional productions.  Not just some MTI performance.

Personally I don't want to see Flower Drum Song without an Asian cast any more than I want to see TKAI without such a cast.

But then again, I guess we could split hairs and say that a lot of those actors in TKAI were Filipino, playing Thai.  

And there were a lot of Japanese actors in the movie version of Flower Drum Song playing Chinese.  I wonder how the Chinese would feel about that?  Lumped together as Asian, but two different cultures.  Who don't have a history of getting along.  

I'm not sure lumping Asians together in casting really respects cultural differences either. 

[hork]

Posted: 7/11/20 at 4:23pm

I don't think lumping Asians together in casting is a problem. We do the same thing with Europeans. Actors play whatever role they can reasonably pass as, and a world in which they can only play characters from their own ethnic background is neither necessary nor desirable.

[Hot Pants]

Posted: 7/11/20 at 5:33pm

Changing diverse shows into all white casts never works and ends up making everyone involved look bad.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 7/13/20 at 11:57pm

It does not.

Updated On: 7/13/20 at 11:57 PM