Modernized/updated Hammerstein shows?- Page 2

[Musical Master]

Posted: 7/5/14 at 10:38pm

I'm suprised no one's talked about Cinderella, that show is an example of an update that happened to be in a good (respectful) way by Douglas Carter Beane. I've never been a fan of the original television version (nor the 97 one) but I think it's okay with Andrews and Warren giving their own neat performances.

[Jungle Red]

Posted: 7/5/14 at 10:47pm

Cinderella is the only show I can think of off the top of my head that doesn't exist in a real place. You can change the setting of Cinderella to anywhere, although I don't know why you would.

How much of Oklahoma is How Green was my Valley?

[IndyTheatreGeek]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 1:19am

When I think of modernizing a show, it usually means setting it in a different time period. For the most part this to my traditional mind just doesn't work. I've seen Macbeth in any number of incarnations but none worked for me as well as a traditional setting. Rewriting, on the other hand can work as the current Cinderella production demonstrates. But it is still set in a fairy tale kingdom and covers the familiar story of Cinderella with the requisite humble beginnings, wicked step mother, fairy godmother, and handsome prince. The updated book has wonderful resonance with today but in 50 years it may be more anachronistic than the original.

This would probably work with other lesser known R&H shows but could be a tougher sell for the more popular like Oklahoma and South Pacific. And as others have commented, many are time specific. Imagine South Pacific set in Viet Nam, for example. The basic story could work as would many of the songs, but I doubt it would get my butt in a seat no matter what the stunt casting. What might be much more fun would be a new R&H musical in the vein of Crazy for You or Nice Work If You Can Get It. Done well, that I would pay to see.

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 9:04am

I guess the problem that I have with updating a story like Cinderella is that even though it is set in a fairy tale land and not a real place, it has many elements of reality that do still exist today, and the book tries to update some of the old-fashioned ideas without updating all of them. So we end up with the ridiculous conceit of a prince giving an election for the position of his adviser, without addressing the fact that his position as ruler was inherited through nepotism. The supposedly enlightened prince whom Cinderella taught about the importance of listening to what "the people" want does not step down and offer to run for election to regain his position as ruler or make the position an elected one. So the whole thing just reads very inconsistently. At least with the old book they could just keep it a period piece with its own internally-consistent story. The update is very distracting. I imagine a lot of works might have similar problems if updating some parts of them (dialogue, etc.) while keeping inherently dated key story features intact.

Updated On: 7/6/14 at 09:04 AM

[gcal]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 7:04pm

"How much of Oklahoma is How Green was my Valley?"

None. Oklahoma is based on Green Grow the Lilacs.

[candydog2]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 7:23pm

Cinderella was adapted, expanded and rewritten to go from the original TV production to the Broadway production running today, it's not something that a theatre director would be likely to do with an existing R&H stage property such as "The King and I".

Modernising most shows or changing settings would require rewrites in order for them to make sense, and therefore would be considered adaptations rather than a modernised reproduction of the original. Sort of like how Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet became West Side Story. The original key points were there, but it was not his own script placed directly onto the stage.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 7:44pm

"We're still talking about a rhymed, poetic form, so you're not going to get gritty realism. And as Eric points out, profanities wouldn't have been allowed at the time anyway."

I disagree. Carousel has spouse and child abuse in the plot. It is hinted at that Billy provides sexual favors to Mrs. Mullin. Oklahoma has a rape ballet. Ado Annie is portrayed as a slut. Yet the lyrics are so santized. They are only one step ahead of moon-spoon-June. I don't think that the R&H lyrics match the characters or the plots of the stories.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 10:18pm

Goth, you are just wrong. This isn't MY theory about Hammerstein's contribution to musical theater lyrics; any decent musical-theater history book will tell you the same.

And you continue to make the wrong comparison: the point isn't that CAROUSEL employs the vocabulary of David Mamet, it's that it does not employ the vocabulary of ANYTHING GOES. As you yourself point out, it is HINTED that Billy provides sexual favors to his employer; it isn't explicitly described.

And let's recall that the R&H plays were considered so "gritty" by musical standards that an entirely new term--the "musical play"--was coined to distinguish them from the musical comedies and operettas previously in style.

Some may find OKLAHOMA!, CAROUSEL and SOUTH PACIFIC corny by today's standards, but let's remember the death of major characters in those works was shocking in its day.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 10:37pm

"As you yourself point out, it is HINTED that Billy provides sexual favors to his employer; it isn't explicitly described."

You've missed my point. Those things are in the book of the show but they are not reflected in the music. I'm not expecting the music to be David Mamet, but I think it doesn't match the book. The book and the music just don't match.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/6/14 at 11:24pm

Obviously you are entitled to that opinion, Goth, but I can't say I even understand what you mean. You say the book "hints" that Billy is a gigolo. The lyrics "hint" at animal sexuality:

"All the rams are chasing ewe sheep
They're determined there'll be new sheep
And the ewe sheep aren't even keeping score
Because it's June!...."

Seems pretty consistent to me (and it's also true to the rather earthier Nettie). Hammerstein believed that characters should only sing when the emotional intensity of the scene had risen to a heightened state. So you are right that characters will say things they don't sing. But not because what they sing is out of character. (And, again, this is all relative. Hammerstein wasn't arguing that characters should sing guttural profanities.)

Updated On: 7/6/14 at 11:24 PM

Posted: 7/7/14 at 4:51am

You're a queer one, GothamPC.

[Mattbrain]

Posted: 7/7/14 at 9:47am

I could never take these boards seriously (I know, shocker) but now you're mentioning Peter Griffin's production.

That man committed murder. And the victim's name was theater. That wasn't art! That wasn't even entertainment! That……blew!!!!

[Wilmingtom]

Posted: 7/7/14 at 4:17pm

I'll admit that I don't even know what "modernized" means. Is it taking Knickerbocker Holiday and setting it in Chicago during the 1966 riots? Anything Goes set on a Princess Cruise? My Fair Lady moved to Appalachia circa 1950? Just leave them alone. They are our cultural musical theater touchstones and we can't know where we're going if we don't know where we've been. The great ones neither need nor want any "help."

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 7/7/14 at 4:45pm

It's for a semi - staged concert that i might direct later next year in a black box. Due to budget I can't use period specific clothing. I was wondering if there were legal restrictions.

[beagle]

Posted: 7/7/14 at 4:45pm

There's a production of CAROUSEL currently running in London that changes the setting to during the Great Depression. It's been getting good reviews. There are photos from the production on the website.


CAROUSEL, Arcola Theatre

[icecreambenjamin]

Posted: 7/7/14 at 4:48pm

That's interesting.
We do have a lot of costume pieces from that Era that we could fix up for the show.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/7/14 at 9:20pm

It's difficult-to-impossible to update realistic works because of the references in the dialogue. You pretty much have to do an adaptation to avoid anachronism.

But with more poetic scripts, it IS possible to make interesting changes in time and place, because the language usually isn't specific in those areas. This is why the Greeks and Shakespeare are shifted to new periods more often than Ibsen or Williams.

R&H's are among the more representational musicals, so they are problematic, but they are still essentially poetic in style. I see no problem with a CAROUSEL set in the Great Depression. On the other hand, setting OKLAHOMA! in the present day just begs the question, "Why?" The rule of thumb should be whether the play makes more sense or less when its setting is moved. It shouldn't be a matter of a director showing how clever s/he is. (This latter point isn't a reference to you, ice-cream. I know you're not making changes to flatter yourself.)

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 1:30am

adam.peterson44,

Maybe there's a sequel in the works where the people rise up and force the Prince (now the King) to sign the Magna Carta and it becomes a constitutional monarchy.

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 3:39am

^ That would indeed be an improvement. :)

Although speaking as a Canadian who saw an attempt at a coalition government thwarted just a few years ago by an unelected government official appointed by the queen of the UK (and Canada), even constitutional monarchies greatly anger me both for their nepotism as well as the gross transfer of taxpayer money to supporting obscenely wealthy people who got their positions and wealth by birth and not through hard work.

But back to the world of theatre, I like your sequel idea!

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 9:22am

They are our cultural musical theater touchstones and we can't know where we're going if we don't know where we've been. The great ones neither need nor want any "help."

I applaud your loyalty but some of the major musical comedies of the 20s-40s rely on jokes that we now either find offensive or don't understand. (Musicals in those days frequently hired vaudeville comics and incorporated their "acts" into the book, whether it made much sense or not.) They can still be presented in the original form, but as with Roman comedy and much of Shakespeare's clowns, their status as "comedy" is barely discernible.

I mentioned that UCLA did the original script of BABES IN ARMS; it was a bit like a trip to a museum. Not a bad evening, but not what one expects from a musical comedy. (And I hope it's clear from my posts that I am familiar enough with the world of 1937 to understand the topical references--understanding is one thing and laughing is another. I had a better time at a production using the 1959 revisal, though it is admittedly more shallow and less politically sharp.)

OKLAHOMA! still works just fine IMO, but I doubt its underlying theme of political unity is received today as it was during WWII. We'll have to wait and see how it plays in 2060.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 9:26am

Alas, Adam, we Americans also transfer billions in taxpayer monies to the richest 1%. And we don't even get much pomp and spectacle for our buck!

[trpguyy]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 10:25am

Carousel is a conundrum - a few of the best songs in musical theatre history, in possibly the worst show ever. It is ripe for an overhaul.

[Musical Master]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 10:33pm

^I must disagree with you on that one, unlike Cinderella which was ripe for a rewrite (by Douglas Carter Beane which was done in good taste unlike Flower Drum Song's unforgivable rewrite from 2002), Carousel is still a beloved musical by a lot of people and the Rodgers and Hammerstein Organization wouldn't allow a massive reworking if people still love it for what it is.

Carousel to be set in the Great Depression is an interesting idea, but did New England still have clambakes during the 30's?

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 10:40pm

^^^^ I should think clambakes survived into the 1930s. I used to heard about them as a kid in the 1960s.

Per Wiki, they are still held today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_clam_bake

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/12/14 at 10:43pm

(CAROUSEL) is "possibly the worst show ever".

I can think of several hundred shows you have yet to see. Even R&H gave us ME AND JULIET.

Updated On: 7/12/14 at 10:43 PM