Sound Design: Matilda- Page 2

[morosco]

Posted: 1/9/14 at 5:17pm

ravnquest1, do you think that some designers or a board operators get so used to the show's lyrics and dialogue that they don't really "hear" either of them anymore? Does the designer ever think to themselves, "did I hear that lyric clearly or did I "hear" that clearly only because I already know the lyric"? I would imagine it would be hard to listen objectively when you already know the words. But still no excuse. Does that make any sense?

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/9/14 at 5:28pm

Tag interesting point, but Matilda did win Best Sound in London and from what we've read here (perhaps not a large sampling), the sound issues are also a part of that production.

I think morocco brings up a really important point: How does a Sound Designer remain objective after knowing the dialogue and lyrics?

I would like to also ask, how many "sound zones" are in any specific theater (I suspect they're different for many theaters) and does the Sound Designer sit through performances in each zone, to actually hear what the audiences in these zones hear? Do they go back from time-to-time?

Updated On: 1/9/14 at 05:28 PM

[KathyNYC2]

Posted: 1/9/14 at 5:59pm

I can't comment about London but having seen Matilda a number of times here, I have always had problems with the sound. The times I was upstairs was worse than when I was in the orchestra but there always seems to be way too much echo for my taste.

Just one example, which has bugged me each time I have seen it..on both the London and the Bway CD, I absolutely love the "I'm Here" number between the Escapologist and Matilda - but in the theater, I can never hear Matilda. I mean here is a grown man belting out this emotional song filling up the theater singing opposite a young girl with a beautiful but small voice by comparison. Can't the mikes be adjusted to hear both singers? It just annoys the heck out me each time. Maybe that's just me..I dunno.

It's just a lot of little moments for me that I notice when I am there - that I would like to think I shouldn't have to notice.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/9/14 at 6:35pm

I would suspect that the mix between actors sharing the stage would be very difficult to control for those audience members siting close to the stage. I would suggest that it is also be the responsibility of the actors singing together to "blend".

Updated On: 1/9/14 at 06:35 PM

[darquegk]

Posted: 1/9/14 at 6:56pm

I question whether or not some of this "mess of sound" is intentional. Noise pollution is one of the central metaphors of the show- Mrs. Wormwood sings about how "you've gotta be LOUDDDDDD," and Matilda is bombarded with voices and information in her head. This, combined with the comments from the sound designer linked earlier in this thread, make me wonder if a messy, expansive sound that suddenly gets replaced with moments of quiet clarity might be what they are going for. If so, it's a questionable choice, but at least it's a choice.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/9/14 at 7:26pm

At the expense of understanding what people are saying and what's going on onstage? Very questionable choice if this is so. I do think that there are an enormous amount of sound effects that are coming from all over the theater that add both a sense of confusion and excitement. I had no objections with this - in fact, I liked it and found it fun. My issue was simply not understanding what people were saying to the point of missing key plot points.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 4:53am

Re: sound zones.
There is no way to answer that. It varies according to every theatre and every production.
The acoustics of every building are different and every seat can, and does, receive sound differently based on what is around it. Under the overhang is different than not, a seat upstairs is different from downstairs, under a box has a different sound quality, etc etc. Then add an audience. A body in every seat changes the acoustics from an empty theatre or empty seats. Bodies, like buildings, are acoustic surfaces and absorb and reflect sound. Then factor the season. Sweaters and coats? All that soft fabric absorbs sound and changes sound wave patterns. Every. Single. Thing. Changes it.
Then add in changes made to the building over the years. Most Broadway theatres were not built for air conditioning units. They alter the reaction of sound. Turn them on and you further change that as most any a/c unit creates a floor of white noise that the show's sound has to overcome.
Now we get to the physical production. Every moving light creates a small amount of white noise, as does every winch and projector. Again, the base sound level has to cover that.
The designers work to create a sound system that provides quality, even coverage and is slightly flexible enough to account for conditions that change each day. The sound levels are then established. The quietest the show can EVER be is a sound level that hopefully covers all that obnoxious white noise. Most theatres also have a MAXIMUM sound level based sometimes on what what the structure can handle (the Shubert actually has a maximum sound level) and based on trying to prevent the sound design from bleeding into nearby structures - especially other theatres. Those factors establish the range of sound levels the show can exist within.
Now we get into modern audiences. You WANT the audience to ACTIVELY listen to the show, but this is a dying skill. People expect to HEAR. The want the sound, essentially, forced onto them... Much like a movie theatre or loud TV. They want to sit back and have it come to them.
These are the nuts and bolts of what a designer faces BEFORE factoring in the needs of a show.

Now, as we said, the board operator? Well.
The design is set. The have to execute the programmed design. That is their contracted job and they can be fired if they do not. They can not respond to what individuals in the audience say to them. Sound levels, speaker layouts, etc are all set. Essentially, they are responsible for making sure mics are on and off, executing sound effects, and reacting to issues that arise in performance. That is the most base I can explain. It is harder than it sounds. EVERY line of dialogue? The mic is turned on before and off after, usually during conversation even, that prevents feedback. Every line you hear, that sound op is moving a fader on the board. They also have to respond to missed cues by actors, etc to make sure audiences hear an adlib to cover. They also wear a headset to hear the stage manager, so they are not listening as though they are an audience member. Stage management is giving them cues throughout the show they they have to react to as well.
We an go on for days as to what a board op does, but sorry to say, it does not and can not include reacting to individuals in the audience and their opinion, no matter how much they may want to.
It is also VERY disruptive to say anything to a board op before the show or at intermission or at the end of the show unless they were to engage you. The closest moment to being acceptable is after the exit music when they are leaving the mix position. Remember, even after the show, they are mixing the exit music and then powering down a system that costs many tens of thousands of dollars while noting any critical information that needs to be relayed to stage management and department heads when they get backstage.

[NotTheComfyChair]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 10:24am

Artc3 - the best way to get your views to people who actually could do something would be a letter to the producers. I feel, and I think BroadwayGuy's excellent post bears it out, going through the company wouldn't be much use. I think it likely that no-one below the level of producer or director has the power to change the sound design. The Matilda people I know are well aware of the issues. One thing I heard was that, rather than address sound problems, there was a decision to shift the accent in Matilda to make it easier to understand. I don't know if this is true or has happened yet - anyone know? - but I don't understand the logic behind it. In my experience, accents are often an area that gets blamed when the biggest problems are really elsewhere. Maybe it's easier to blame accents than address the bigger issue of sound design problems...

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 1:07pm

broadwayguy2, thank you for your excellent post. I have always respected the many areas of expertise that is required to mount and run a Broadway show - any show for that matter. Your "overview" goes a long way in explaining why those behind the scenes are as important as those within the spot light.

I found Mr. Baker's website and wrote him a polite email and I am sending a letter to the producers today. It really is a shame that Matilda suffers from sound design that makes it incomprehensible at least in certain areas of the house. AND, as a avid consumer of theater, I feel that I - we - are entitled to better.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 1:53pm

ComfyChair,
In a case such as that, it is a decided mix. A great sound design gos a long way, but even the best sound design or a show with just natural voice can be entirely lost simply from the use of acccents. A realistic accent often times becomes muddled for an audience that doesn't regularly listen to that accent, so it's a circular problem. With young performers, it's even moreso the case. That's why the best bet is often a modified and thinned accent to give the impression of the accent while keeping it in a zone that the audience can quickly grasp throughout the show.
Americans also have a larger problem in that a British accent things somewhat and sounds more American while singing - its in how the words are formed, after all. British audiences do not think twice about that. But here in the states, when an actor has to use a British dialect on stage in a musical, they are expected to keep that accent just as thick throughout songs as well or they are pegged as not able to use an accent properly. This not only pushes the actor further and is more taxing and unnatural, but also makes lyrics harder to understand.

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 2:41pm

I don't think the problem was with the accent. I have spent a fair amount of time in the UK and I can watch even the most difficult of British dramas on the BBC and understand each and ever word. I might not get the meaning, but I can make out the word. I'd like to believe I'm not a lazy listener and when a show starts I understand my responsibility in making an effort as the audience.

Honestly, in the Shubert Theatre Wednesday night, I couldn't make out whole sentences of dialogue and even less lyrics.

Please note that I have sat through many many more shows and understood nearly every word - some of them with heavy English accents.

* * *

As I was typing this, I got this email from Simon Baker (Sound Designer)...

Thank you for your email.

I'm sorry your experience was disappointing and frustrating. I'm sad that on this occasion you felt that my work fell short of your expectations.

Both myself, and the shows producers, are aware of the issues you raise. Not all those issues are to do with sound design. We continue to work constantly in all areas of the production to improve the audiences experience of our show. The show is monitored daily by our resident team and the creative team are in regular attendance as are both the US and UK producers and General Managers.

Best Wishes

Simon Baker


I think that was very decent for him to respond to me. It doesn't solve the issue, but he did take the time to let me know that my words didn't fall on deaf ears (pun intended).

[trpguyy]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 2:56pm

While broadwayguy2 makes some excellent points about the difficulties with sound in a room, it's worth pointing out that even with all of that, it's completely possible to (and unacceptable to not) have intelligible audio. There are dozens of other Broadway shows running that do not have these problems, not to mention all the tours out there that manage to have great sounding shows even with extremely limited time to tune and sound-check. Updated On: 1/10/14 at 02:56 PM

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 3:49pm

broadwayguy2, have you seen Matilda on Broadway? London? I appreciate your knowledge of this subject and if you have seen either - or both - of these productions, I'd love if you'd weigh in on your personal critique of the Sound Design.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 5:05pm

Exactly trpguyy!
My post was only intented to outline the challenge and never to justify not finding a solution, which is why great designers make the great bucks... but I do hope it helps people to appreciate not only the challenges, but also appreciate when they encounter a great sound design in a show.

I have not seen the London production, only the NY production. In general, I appreciated and enjoyed the show, but not the critical raves it has received. That, however, is another matter for another thread. As far as the sound, I never had problems with sound levelsduring the show, but did find it to be a bit muddy. There is a lot going on and many people on stage in the show, so it is difficult to isolate each person's spund to keep it crisp, though I know it could have been done and could instantly tell you one chief way to do that more. As I said previously, the accents are also difficult, because it is not a crisp accent, even for a seasoned adult. With the children, it makes their speech even more muddy and no sound designer or board op can correct an actor's diction. The Shubert, due to it's architecture, is also rough on a sound designer.

When I able to select seat location for a show I am seeing, particularly in a Broadway house, one of the factors that I always try to consider is how it will sound from my seat and I factor in common EXPECTED speaker location.

(And always remember, a show is going to look AND sound the best from the center orchestra, right whete the mezzanine overhang begins.)

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 5:19pm

"Muddy"... cool. I thought my use of that adjective wasn't "industry standard".

I sat orchestra center one row before the overhang. Now, I'm not so sure about the accent. Originally, I thought I had no problem with the accent. I generally don't have an issue with British accents. Perhaps, the issue is the articulation of that accent.

Anyway, I wrote the General Management company, I wrote the Sound Designer and now I just have to let it go and accept that I didn't have a very good aural experience at Matilda.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 5:52pm

Remember, you are hearing the accent filtered through the sound system. I think the accents at Matilda were a bit too thick, especially considering the young cast members and how many there are. That muddiness is BEFORE interacting woith the sound design.

There is industray standard forte hnical things. There is no "industry standard" in your impression or reaction.

Matilda frankly requires an accent because the dialogue as written is very regionally specific to the UK and the terminology would not sound correct with an american accent. Compare that to, say, The Diary of Anne Frank, where the authors urge you to avoid accents not reflective of where the show is being performed. We know It is set in Amsterdam, but the dialogue is written in such a way that it still sounds and fits with a standard American dialect. No one bats an eye.

Matilda could benefit from thinning the accent out a bit, and/or sticking to a light, generic British.

As far as micing the actors...
Different microphones from different companies pick up sound in different ways, even if they are the same type and size of microphone. Go to YouTube and you can find review videos fromtech experts comparing audio quality. Also, the louder you have a mic turned up, the the audio quality is distorted in the pick up. The more quiet the voice and the furth the mic is from the mouth, the louder / more "open" the mic has to be... that also picks up ambient sound from around the actor and muddies the sound quality. That deteriorates the sound of the voice as it enters the stystem, before it mixed, sent to the speakers and sound level assigned.

To improve clarity, you get the mic closer to the mouth, allowing the mic to be more focused on the voice amd at a level that doesnt distort. The BEST microphones for that are miniatre microphone headbands - the often cursed "headset mics". Newer ones on the market are much smaller and barely noticed, especially beyond the fourth or fifth row. Countryman's h-6 headset mic is absolutely tiny... The head of a match or smaller. Match the mic to the flesh tone of the actor, stick them on the Matilda kids with the mic element near their mouths... youd likely improve clarity some just on that. Many directors are reluctant to use headset mics though for fear that they would ruin the "look" that they want.

[NotTheComfyChair]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 5:52pm

broadwayguy- having read your - first - reply, I thought yet more about exactly what my issues were and it still comes back to Sound. When I sat on the side of the orchestra, there was an echo for much of the show together with a muffled quality. Even when I sat in excellent seats, at least two of the characters - one was Matilda's "best friend" - sounded muffled as if the mic was covered with clothing - which I'm sure it wasn't as they all seemed to have head mics. I should say that I also had problems understanding lyrics when the full chorus were singing two or three different lyrics at once (which is not really a surprise, I suppose) or when the kids were singing/shouting at the tops of their voices. However, my big issue throughout was Sound.
I will address the accent issue - though not too much as it's a side bar from the main point of the thread - and I do it from the perspective of someone who has a fair amount of knowledge of the subject. People who have (or have to acquire for acting purposes) an regional accent tend to find that their sounds become less regional when singing because it require vowels to be held, more space in the mouth, different ways of stressing syllables and words... This takes it towards a sound that is, coincidentally, close to a non-regional American accent. This shift applies equally to all American regional accents as well as British. Of course, the director of any show with accents - and I include wonderful American shows like Floyd Collins - will likely want to make sure that the accent doesn't disappear completely but I would be very surprised if they would prize authenticity over comprehension. I thought Billy Elliot managed that balance very well. There are productions that favor authenticity over comprehension are usually though I've mainly heard it in Off and Off-Off plays rather than musicals. To conclude, I've even heard of directors and coaches who wanted to do The Crucible in authentic 17th century accents. Authenticity run amok!

Updated On: 1/10/14 at 05:52 PM

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 6:03pm

I agree completely and totally with what you say hre.. Clearly, based on discussion of accent when singing. it ALL boils down to the sound, but I am observing that the accents on top of that can compound the problem.

As Far as a mic sounding like it was covered, goes, wearing a hat changes how a mic picks up soind since the soind reflects off of the brim - sometimes you will notice (if you look closely) that a hat has a separate microphone to compensate (note: Elphaba in Wicked).. Mic placement could also be a bit off that one day and a wig is muffling sound (rare, but happens)...

[NotTheComfyChair]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 6:14pm

hear what you say and agree.

I also had "hands covering the face" causing problems for mics

The mic issue for the friend character was a hairline mic with no hat. It was the same on all three shows and, I think, one show had the swing on in that part.

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 7:39pm

No excuse at all, but that could be something involving the wig interferring with the mic element. SIgh. Honestly, I have several cardinal sins in theatre that get my goat. Sloppy sound design is one.

[morosco]

Posted: 1/10/14 at 8:02pm

I saw the touring company of JERSEY BOYS last night in a 3,500 seat theater that has notoriously awful acoustics and the sound was absolutely SUPERB! Bravo to the designers, the cast and the crew!

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/11/14 at 12:19am

I find this fascinating... I have always appreciated good sound, but without much knowledge as to the issues involved in creating a exemplary audio experience. I really appreciate those who have added to this thread with their understanding of the issues at hand.

1) I will not attempt to communicate with the Sound Engineer unless to thank them for an excellent job upon leaving the theater and only after the exit music has ended.

2) I will sit a little further back then I've been used to and choose seats center right under the mezzanine overhang.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 1/11/14 at 12:29am

Both myself, and the shows producers, are aware of the issues you raise. Not all those issues are to do with sound design.

Well, then, what are these selfsame issues that aren't to do with sound design but keep people from hearing the performers and understanding the the lyrics?

[ARTc3]

Posted: 1/11/14 at 12:32am

^ I wrote the producers through the General Managers c/o The Shubert Theatre and I posed a very similar question. I also politely asked, that if the quality of the show is constantly being monitored, the show has been running since April 2013, and that there are numerous posts complaining about the sound quality at Matilda (I did a google search and found many many more complaints about this issue), why hasn't this already been resolved?

I just mailed the letter today. I am not sure I'll get a response, but at least I offered my voice. I suspect I did that more for me than Matilda.

Seeing Broadway shows in excellent seats is a very expensive habit that comes at some sacrifice to me. If producers wish to continue to get my dollars, I want them to understand that I consider being able to comprehend what I'm hearing is important to me.

Updated On: 1/11/14 at 12:32 AM

[broadwayguy2]

Posted: 1/11/14 at 1:14am

It is also worth noting the most basic and simple fix for YOU. When you get to the theatre, ask to be directed to the assisted listening devices. If you have issues hearing at any time, you just put it on.

Just under the mezzanine overhang, you will see small "fill" speakers used to get sound to the rear orchestra beneath the overhang. If you are a row or two behind those, that might help with unassisted hearing.

If you sit in the first several rows of the orchestra, remember that every speaker except for the small fill speakers at the front lf the stage apron are aiming BEYOND you, so you arent hearing the show as it is mixed to sound. You are hearing a combination of live voices from the stage and live instruments located in the pit, individual speakers near your seat (not ALL sound comes through every speaker) and what is essentially a diluted version of the rest of the sound as it travels around the theatre. This is much more the case with musicals, as opposed to a straight play, where you can benefit by sitting closer.