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Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?

Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?

JudasIscariot Profile Photo
JudasIscariot
#0Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:34am

Hey, I've been reading some posts, and it seems that there are a vast majority of people who hate Stephen Schwartz. I'd like to get some valid opinions (other than OMG HE SUXXORS), and see why you like, or dislike him.

Personally, I think that he is a gift to broadway, and one of the greatest composers of our time. I compare him to Andrew Lloyd Webber, and both being my favorite composers of all time.

He has written some wonder music, such as Pippin, The Baker's Wife, Children of Eden, which is VASTLY underrated, Godspell, The Prince of Egypt which, which is one of my favorite movie soundtracks, and of course, Wicked.

Now, there are many people who don't like him, just because he wrote Wicked. Why? How can you be that biased? Just because you don't like one show that he did, is that enough to condemn him? Wicked is a beautiful show, with a beautiful score. Accept it for what it is, a great show. It's not perfect, it's not the greatest show ever, but it is very emotional, and greatly entertaining. This is not the thread to come and rant about Wicked, this is about the great Stephen Schwartz. Please, no flaming for others opinions. Be kind.

BEKA531
#1re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:40am

yes, MOST of his work is beautiful. but he milks it for all its worth. he can be a very selfish person and thinks he deserves every award possible for every note he composes.
Updated On: 6/17/05 at 09:40 AM

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My Fair Lady
#2re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:46am

I disagree with a lot of what you said. I'm going to write my opnions are of the cast recordings fo three of his most well-known shows and Working, the show itself.

Wicked-There are some great songs, but I wouldn't call the score beautiful. For every great song he wrote for this show, there is an annoying one to make up for it. I like the show, but I'm not it's biggest fan. I think that the music is pretty good, but not amazing.
Godspell-I like this a lot more than Wicked, and is probably my favorite thing that Schwartz wrote.
Pippin-This is an enjoyable listen, but I'm not addicted to it.

Working-I loathed this show. It bored me and I thought it was just stupid. And the music wasn't particularly catchy or wonderful.



My overall opinion of Schwartz is that he's a standard broadway composer, much like Lloyd Webber, and I'm not Lloyd Webber's biggest fan. I think that ALW writes catchy music that appeals to the mainstream population, unlike Sondheim or Jason Robert Brown, who writes really amazing music that may not appeal to everyone.

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LittleFish8386
#3re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:51am

MFL I agree with you almost 100% I think his music gets boring. I really dislike Pippin and Godspell. And with Wicked, the novelty of the songs only lasts for a small time. There are about 2 songs in that show that I would call decent songs, and that is Popular (clever lyrics) and Thank Goodness (not clever lyrics, but nicely written). His music is far far far from beautiful. Its very elementary, and somewhat easy to sing, understand, and learn.


I think the true masters of beautiful scores are the likes of Sondheim, Rodgers and Hammerstein, and recently Adam Guettel.

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JohnPopa
#4re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:53am

Neither. He's written some work I like (Godspell, the music to Children of Eden, some of the music from Pippin) and a whole lot of other stuff that ranges from pleasant but unremarkable (Baker's Wife, The Prince of Egypt stuff) to numbinbly uninteresting (most everything else.)

He's still stuck in his own routine of writing showtune riffs on sixties folk pop which makes no sense for a score like 'Wicked' and only sort of works in 'Children Of Eden.' He's not nearly modern enough to appease people who listen to stuff other than showtunes and he's not really detailed enough to appeal to people who want showtunes that don't have that popular flair. Whereas Lloyd Webber has made an international industry out of sitting comfortably between the two camps, Schwartz seems limited by his inability to appease one group or the other. In the end, I think he's a competent but oftentimes forgettable songwriter.

And I think demanding that people 'accept that Wicked is a great show' is probably not the best road to take to try and start a non-confrontational dialogue about the composer, given that plenty of people aren't going to agree with that, no matter how emphatically you think it to be true.

In the end, though, Schwartz is a composer who's hits have had very little to do with his work. 'Godspell' was something he was brought into at the end and it's not like the score is any sort of example of theater scoring, given the irrelevance of most of the songs, 'Pippin' was rewritten by Fosse into something workable, 'The Magic Show' succeeded because of Doug Hennig. Everything else he's tried that has been more reflective of his ideas and his dramatic impulses hasn't succeeded, although 'COE,' 'The Baker's Wife' and 'Working' have strong lives as regional shows, that doesn't override the shows' glaring faults.

So I certainly don't hate Stephen Schwartz. But a gift to Broadway? I think that's being a bit melodramatic.

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My Fair Lady
#5re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:54am

LittleFish, I want to add Jason Robert Brown and Rogers and Hart to your list. I also love Lerner and Loewe.

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LittleFish8386
#6re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:56am

That's my girl!

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ljay889
#7re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 9:59am

You people are saying that his scores aren't beautiful. So I guess you haven't heard "Children of Eden"??

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LittleFish8386
#8re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:02am

He writes good Disney music.

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paradox_error
#9re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:07am

Ljay - Read their posts. I believe JohnPopa wrote that he liked Children of Eden.

My opinion: He's not great. He's not that bad. His shows just aren't that remarkable. Even GODSPELL (which I think is his best) leaves me somewhat unsatisfied.

But there are definately worse composers, and worse shows out there.

But telling people they HAVE to like a composer/show is just ignorant. Sure, I can't understand how someone wouldn't like Sunday in the Park with George or Pacific Overtures (two of my favorite shows), but I respect their right to have that opinion...

Jwaa
#10re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:07am


I really like his music.....btw not all of Working was by him.

The Bakers Wife, Children of Eden and Wicked are my favourite Schwartz recordings, but i feel....

just like some people like pop and hate rock, and some people like hip hop and country-western, just because people like Musical Theatre Cast Recordings....doesnt mean that its just one genre, the thing I like the most about Musical Theatre is that they vary and there are man different styles and factors about them, so whos to say just because they have a great knowledge of musical theatre background and recordings that their OPINION is any more valid than any one elses when it comes to how composers write their music, its all just opinion, I find enjoyment in listening to Stephen Schwartz's music, you dont....that doesnt mean he is in anyway a rubbish composer.
I find Rodgers and Hammerstein extremely boring and lame...but there ya go!
Updated On: 6/17/05 at 10:07 AM

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JohnPopa
#11re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:08am

'Children of Eden' has a lot of songs I like. To call it 'beautiful scoring' is exaggerating at best, being a mark for any sort of choral arrangement at worst. It's pretty simple stuff and it's more effective out of context than in the show where the score mashes into a sort of lifeless mess, devoid of the musical growth necessary for a score to go beyond being a collection of nice songs. It doesn't build to its climaxes and, given the amount of music in the show, you can't blame that on the book. Put plainly, the score to COE doesn't tell the story as much as it talks about the story going on around it.

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ljay889
#12re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:10am

Actually - I think it's just a matter of opinion if you find his scores beautiful or not.

If you take the score from COE, forgetting the book. It's a great score. It does get corny at times. But it has some fabolous songs.

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paradox_error
#13re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:14am

Jwaa - Are you saying there is a lot of negativity on this thread?

I think that everyone is being very civil and subjective about this. Maybe that's only me...

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JohnPopa
#14re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:23am

Well, just because you like someone's work doesn't mean they're not a 'rubbish composer' either. There are people who are able to discuss something going beyond whether or not they like it.

Jwaa
#15re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:23am

sorry...yeah i agree, lol i guess i just got caught up in the whole thing, lol, yeah sorry guys, as you were
Xx

JBSinger
#16re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:27am

The wunderkind has grown up. Schwartz's history in Bway circles has been tarnished by the fact that he had three hits before he was out of his 20's. Regardless of the contributions to those 3 hits that made them so, his music was catchy, rhythmic and of its time. Stylistically, he is allowed to draw upon anything he wishes. His voice happens to be kind of folk-pop, but it is not limited to that by any means. Baker's Wife has a gorgeous score and from what I hear, the book structure gets stronger every time someone revisits it (Papermill). Schwartz didn't write all the songs to Working, but his contributions are among the strongest. Children of Eden was written more oratorio-style and would explain some of its criticism, but it is also his most unique, developed score. Though I wish WICKED had remained a little closer to the book, I enjoyed the show and think some wonderful songs emerged from it. I'm happy for his success and am looking forward to what comes next.
The Pop Ballad existed long before Disney/Alan Menken made it pretty standard. you cannot fault a man for writing within a now established tradition. AND...his free-standing songs are even more daring than his Bway work ("Prestidigitation", "life Goes On"). Hopefully we'll get to hear his Han Christian Anderson songs, as I'm sure they will sound completely different from what we've heard before (yet within his voice/style).

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BobbyBubby
#17re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 10:35am

Mostly hate, or rather, most of his work does nothing for me. I can't resist Baker's Wife though.

theatreman
#18re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 11:36am

I don't understand the problems many people seem to have with Mr. Schwartz. Godspell is a pretty impressive score, I think, and Pippin is also a pretty good score. I like the score of Wicked, and keep in mind he, like a variety of other Broadway composers, has written the music for several Disney movies (The Hunchback of Norte Dame and Pochahantas, among others). Some people don't seem to like his music, but I think his scores are certainly far above average. Godspell and Pippin are pretty well respected shows; perhaps the people who dislike them or consider them average should listen to music (for the first time or again) and/or see a production of one of/both of those shows.

As for the remarks made about him thinking that he "deserves every award," I think that is awfully absurd. I was fortunate enough to meet him at a Wicked cast signing, and he was very nice. He signed the CD, and even posed for a photo. He also cracked a joke, but I was a bit to "in shock" to understand it. In any event, my experiences with him and his music have been very positive and I wonder what the basis for the claims about his "arrogance" are.

Gooch
#19re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 11:45am

While I like almost everything Schwartz has written, I consider the score of Pippin to be stellar, a mainstay of theatre music.

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gymman
#20re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 11:48am

Right on, JohnPapa

Schwartz isn't really intersting enough to inspire the extremes of "love" or "hate"...
These are bland, pop music scores, simple in construction, serviceable, no more. The music for "Wicked," as you point out, makes no sense; the sound is all wrong for the show. Even ALW looks good next to him. But look at the classic composers--Rogers, Kerns, Sondheim, now (I think) Guittel--listen to the complexity of the music, the ways in which themes are dveloped and rpeated, the ways in which the music makes sense for the scenario and the characters.
Pop music by its nature is bland and interchangeable--that's why people argue over the INTERPRETATION of the song, rather than the song. As I said in anothe post, pop musci serves the singer. Singers and musicians serve great writers.


Updated On: 6/17/05 at 11:48 AM

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BroadwayGirlWicked
#21re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 11:50am

its all about LOVE


_CORRIE_--Most annoying member of 2005- AVATAR- Credit: copyright GregoryJbara.com-- DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT NOT EVERYONE USES PUNCTUATION?

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Rose_MacShane
#22re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 12:21pm

I don't HATE his work, but I don't like it either. I don't care for his stuff. The only scores of his I've heard are "Wicked" and "Godspell" and I wasn't impressed with either.
Listening to "Wicked," I find it hard to tell the songs apart sometimes, and I think it's a very undistinguished score overall; the songs sort of blend together for me. To poppy for my taste. The novel is quite dark, and the score doesn't fit it at all, in my opinion.
As for "Godspell," there is one song from it that I like, "Day By Day," but overall it's not one of my favorites.


http://community.livejournal.com/ltd_brands_suck/

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JudasIscariot
#23re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 12:55pm

Let me also state, that I am not trying to force anyone to like Stephen, and I am not saying that you have to like him.

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redhotinnyc2
#24re: Stephen Schwartz: Love Him or Hate Him?
Posted: 6/17/05 at 1:32pm

Hate is a strong word and one I'm working on eliminating from my vocabulary...but having said that, I've never liked his songs in context of the shows they're written for. They're usually very bland and the lyrics just don't make me feel anything. Out of context, for example, when someone sings one in class, I tend to find more to like about them. But the shows he has written just leave me cold, for the most part.


"I don't really get the ending,all i can go with is when after several months,Judith saw Pat sang,and later she kissed him on the toilet,after that the story back to where Pat went down from the stage after he'd sung,and he went to the italian lady.I just don't get it,what Judith exatcly meant when he kissed Pat that she had seen,and did Pat end up together with The Italian Lady?Please help me,thank u very much!" Quote from someone on IMDB in reference to a movie he/she didn't understand. Such grammar!