The religion of peace strikes again.

[qolbinau]

Several dead in London. 

We are in a war of ideas and beliefs. We need to promote atheism, secularism, critical thinking, wide education and criticise introctrination and intellectual abuse of children until the poison of religious beliefs are wiped from the face of this earth. 

[Dave28282]

Let's sing a happy song together! And organise a meeting with flowers next week saying: ""We will not let them harm our mood". That will teach them.

Seriously. Why are classes in all schools of the country not immediately adjusted? Most of these terrorists live and work in the UK, USA, etc. They were never exposed to critical thinking or other religions. Why do we keep on insisting creating world alienated people? Why do we allow that? Why are so many people never exposed to anything else, even in this society? Why the hell is it taking so long for the government to do anything about that? The seeds are planted when they are very young. Schools and laws should take responsibility. It's the indoctrination of religion that is the real perpetrator.

[bethnor]

well, sadly, it's just like spotlight.  everyone knows what's going on.  but religion is so precious to people, we would rather let it rape our children rather than let it go. 

unfortunately, liberals are very much to blame for this, as the majority are unable to split religion from culture, and so they will not allow a mature conversation about the subject, axiomatically equating criticism of religion with racism.  it's the same phenomena; religion is too precious, we'd rather let it burn down the world rather than let it go (seems like it will come to that, sadly).

that is a mistake, as people could have otherwise confronted religion using their own language.  the christian far right was able to stoke fear of islam among moderates.  we should have been responding that islam (and ISIS) comes from monotheism, and the need for people to have christianity is what gives us islam and ISIS in the first place.  not working out too good for civilization.

to be clear, religion cannot be extirpated.  we should not try.  however, we should be doing what we can to minimize its public influence.  that is to say, they deserve an EQUAL place at the table.  at present, they are granted a SPECIAL place at the table.

[Dave28282]

I agree. Sadly, people think their religion is their identity. As long as they don't learn it's not, they will stay confused.

Edit: Just as some people think religion is the law. As long as these are not separated, a country stays a zoo.

[TheatreFan4]

 Why are so many people never exposed to anything else, even in this society? Why the hell is it taking so long for the government to do anything about that? The seeds are planted when they are very young. Schools and laws should take responsibility. It's the indoctrination of religion that is the real perpetrator.

That's funny, you talk about the world like your some scholar when in reality you don't know **** about anything. First of all, it's a well known fact that most home grown terrorists are radicalized later in life. You want to know what births them? ISIS Recruiters latching onto disdain for the Muslim faith which you are doing NOTHING to dispel. That's what breeds terrorism, not a religion.

[kdogg36]

TheatreFan4 said: "You want to know what births them? ISIS Recruiters latching onto disdain for the Muslim faith which you are doing NOTHING to dispel. That's what breeds terrorism, not a religion."

I strongly suspect that the daily bombing of Muslim families in the Middle East is a far bigger issue for them than a few people critiquing Islam on a Broadway message board.

[Jane2]

"I strongly suspect that the daily bombing of Muslim families in the Middle East is a far bigger issue for them than a few people critiquing Islam on a Broadway message board."

Your suspicions are correct, Dogg, because the Muslim families don't even know about us.

oy vey.

 

[qolbinau]

TheatreFan4 said: " Why are so many people never exposed to anything else, even in this society? Why the hell is it taking so long for the government to do anything about that? The seeds are planted when they are very young. Schools and laws should take responsibility. It's the indoctrination of religion that is the real perpetrator.

That's funny, you talk about the world like your some scholar when in reality you don't know **** about anything. First of all, it's a well known fact that most home grown terrorists are radicalized later in life. You want to know what births them? ISIS Recruiters latching onto disdain for the Muslim faith which you are doing NOTHING to dispel. That's what breeds terrorism, not a religion.

 

"

It is an important question to understand why people are compelled to join terrorist organizations but we must understand why they exist in the first place. It seems that Islamic extremists genuinely want to start a religious war to impose Sharia law and their religion onto the rest of the world. And their ideas of being a martyr to achieve this purpose and being able to achieve this through force are leading to horrific attacks across the world. No one knows this more than Muslims in countries such as Pakistan whose families and friends are dying exponentially more than us. At the core of Islamic terrorism are religious beliefs. 

[songanddanceman2]

I am so sick of hearing its liberals faults it's Republicans etc. Shut the hell up. You wanna place the blame? Look closer to home, your government, my government are arming terrorism and you are sat there blaming others? This has nothing to do with Islam, if you believe that then you need to get an education fast and stop watching Fox News. 

 

Islam does not promote any of this, they are horrified their religion is hijacked by extreme terrorists. Our countries are bombing the crap out of the Middle East on a daily basis, at some point that was going to create this kind of action. It's like you all think it's as simple as the stupid narrative that Trump pushes, it's ridiculous. 

 

Open youe eyes, your government, my goverement are the ones to blame. You can mock love and standing together all you want but I would rather go with that than the misguided hate that appears on here placing blame and mocking, what do you think that does exactly? What does this stupid thread title do? America is seen as the world leader in funding terror through Saudi Arabia and you are arguing about liberals etc? Get a damn clue. 

 

As for showing the terrorists ain't breaking us here in the UK, instead of mocking us maybe you should look to exactly what your country did after Sept 11th and what that has caused?

 

The huge concert tonight in Manchester led by Miss Grande is the way we choose to respond, yes we have also got tough and our CTU is doing an amazing job, but to be so negative is not doing anyone any good other than pushing your own political agenda. It's nothing to do with liberals, it's nothing to do with republicans, it's to do with hate from a few people.

 

And the fact that the UK and USA are controlled by the right blows the stupid 'liberal' theory out of the water, in fact the U.K. Has never been attacked so much.

 

[qolbinau]

But the phrase "this has nothing to do with Islam" does not make any sense. Islamic extremists identify as Muslims and believe they are carrying out the work of their religion. Indeed, given their reading of their doctrine is more literal than others it is probably closer to the 'real' Islam than moderates who reject the doctrine due to having some common sense. If it's not 'real Islam' then there better be a revolution within Islamic communities and fast to hopefully convince others internally of this. Because right now - the extremists are not convinced. 

[adamgreer]

songanddanceman2 said: "Our countries are bombing the crap out of the Middle East on a daily basis, at some point that was going to create this kind of action.

 

This. 100% this. 




 

 

 

[qolbinau]

Left-wing logic: You can identify as whatever gender or being you want to, no one can tell you you're not a real woman! But not everyone can be a 'real' Muslim. You can devote your life to Allah, memorise the holy text and literally carry out the holy missions described in the text and/or the Hadith. But you're not a 'real' Muslim. You're only a real Muslim if you adopt progressive ideas to pick and choose, ignore or reject the fundamentalist teachings. 

The London attackers shout "this is for Allah" and we are still fed the ridiculous idea that it has 'nothing to do with Islam'.

Of course it is in the interests of the Islamic community to try and distance themselves from these whack jobs. But how is that going to help change their ideas and beliefs? If we don't challenge their ideas and beliefs - it will never ever stop. And by we I'm mostly convinced it has to be influential Muslim leaders that need to do this. They are not going to listen to anyone who is not a Muslim. (Though it's challenging because these people do not think many moderates are 'real' Muslims, either). 

[Call_me_jorge]

"If you can differentiate between the KKK and Christians then you can do the same for Islamist Extremists and Muslims"

[Call_me_jorge]

Like there are sects of Christians who choose to adopt progressive ideas there are sects of Islam who do the same.  

[qolbinau]

Because I'm not a right-wing Christian those analogies can't convince me - Christianity is #2 on religions that must be wiped out (peacefully of course). Any religion, including Christianity, that can be used (mistakingly or otherwise) to cause pain and suffering on this earth has no place in the modern world. Can you imagine someone picking up a science text book and using that to justify the persecution of gay people, women, and to justify violent acts? I can't. 

[South Florida]

golbinau, you may be a little too strident change is slow.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Can you imagine someone picking up a science text book and using that to justify the persecution of gay people, women, and to justify violent acts? I can't.

You yourself seem to be picking up a science book (or the Richard Dawkins bibliography) and using it to justify the persecution of every practicing Muslim. Even using phrases like "religions that must be wiped out" is absolutely unreal to me. Please re-evaluate.

[qolbinau]

I don't wish people to confuse my criticism of belief systems and ideas with persecuting people. The issue is not the individual person level but the wider systems in which they are indoctrinated into and the consequential behaviours of this indoctrination. 

Of course I would never use phrases like wiping out religion in a serious context. But the vision of reducing religious beliefs and their influence on behaviour and political systems I think is incredibly noble and important to reduce terrorism and the ill treatment of gay people, women, atheists etc. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Left-wing logic: You can identify as whatever gender or being you want to, no one can tell you you're not a real woman! But not everyone can be a 'real' Muslim.

 

I mean, you seem to be trying to be deliberately offensive. Are you transphobic as well as Islamophobic? I don't get your point here at all.

[qolbinau]

I like to troll, but no I'm not transphobic. The point was that why can we accept someone's group affiliation based on personal identity for gender and not religion? Obviously because it is inconvenient to be consistent with both. 

Islamaphobic? That word suggests irrational fear. Islam is responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. The deaths, injuries and rejection of women, gay people, trans people, atheists. It is not irrational to criticise this terribly conservative barbaric belief system. It is irrational to somehow not be critical of the belief system when its impact is against the goals of pretty much every progressive belief system in the modern world. 

[Dave28282]

TheatreFan4 said: "  it's a well known fact that most home grown terrorists are radicalized later in life. You want to know what births them? ISIS Recruiters latching onto disdain for the Muslim faith which you are doing NOTHING to dispel. That's what breeds terrorism, not a religion."

 

It is all about religion. 

The radical part is the upbringing, planting seeds in their minds that Allah is almighty and indoctrinate children in a way which says that they need to do whatever you think Allah wants, and therefore creating an alienated person. From there it's only a small step to think (later in life) you are doing good while you are actually doing something bad. This is per definition dangerous. Because of this indoctrination, a person becomes extremely vulnerable to manipulation and creates no sense of self. Responsibility is not present this way. Therefore all children must be taught a much wider worldview from the start.
 

[darquegk]

So, according to Qolbinau, organized religion is the cancer killing the world. According to Dave, who takes it a step further, the mere belief in a higher power, by it being a HIGHER power, is a fundamentally radical and destructive act regardless of what morals or actions it inspires. Am I following okay?

 

I'd like to bring up one of the more difficult philosophical debates of theism vs. atheism: as militant "evangelical atheists," do you believe in the existence of morals, or only of ethics?

[qolbinau]

Close - not quite as extreme. Religion is one of the metaphorical cancers harming people in the world (not the only thing). And Dave's point is that obviously the indoctrination of young children into their religious (muslim) identity and a set of beliefs about the role of Allah in the world etc.. is a very dangerous precursor to radicalisation (you will almost never find an Islamic terrorist is an atheist because they genuinely believe what they say they believe).

Look, I know what I am saying is not pleasant - I wish it could be. It must be hard for some to see why religion is so bad. After all, there are religious democrats and religious republicans (in fact, most if not all elected democrats describe themselves as religious). There are very peaceful, liberal, moderate muslims who support gay rights, women's rights and trans rights. So when you see this you might hold a number of assumptions: all religions can have good and bad impacts, but they're more or less the same - good people do good things and bad people do bad things - religion isn't really a major factor. We should all live together peacefully and just focus on individual-level beliefs/ideas/behaviours because religion isn't really that important.

But I'm telling you unfortunately this vision is even more impractical than mine, and based on assumptions that simply aren't true. The doctrines of the major religions have terrible implications for peace, gay people, women, scientific progress etc.. as we have seen over and over again throughout history, and today. The reason why many religious people are 'good' despite this is because they reject the fundamentalist, literal doctrines. Many religious people say they are Christian because they grew up that way, but they don't operate their lives in the same way as the fundamentalist Christians might do in the Republican party or deep south. And these fundamentalist types - Christians, Muslims etc. - seem to want to do everything they can to ensure either public policy aligns with their views (see: the Republican Party aka, the Christian Party of America), ISIS etc. - and/or that their family, friends behave in ways that are consistent with their views (see: the rejection of gay people, free thinkers, adulterers, etc.). They genuinely, deeply believe what they say they believe - Islamic extremists genuinely believe that they need to uphold Sharia law for the good of society and must use force/violence if needed to achieve it (watch the documentary "Among the Believers" if you need to hear it from them directly). Devout Christians genuinely believe that gay marriage, homosexuality, abortion etc. is against God's plan and need to be discouraged for the good of society. 

Unfortunately, those with strong ideas based on the doctrines of their religions won't hold the same standards of "let's all just respect each other and live peacefully". It hasn't happened and it won't happen. Let us accept the vision that we must reduce religious beliefs in society, and then hope we can find a way to execute this in a peaceful and productive manner. My ideas are around changing our education systems and attitudes towards indoctrination of children (which have and are changing, but very slowly).

RE: The idea of morals/ethics. I mean, I don't know how you are defining those terms - but just to explain my view. There are no such thing as absolute morals. However, objectively there are behaviours and attitudes that impact the physical and mental wellbeing of others (e.g., attitudes towards gay people, women etc.; violence towards gay people women etc.; denial of climate change etc.). If the world's moral framework was based upon simply engaging in behaviours/holding ideas that minimise the physical and mental suffering of others - the world will be a better place. Unfortunately, religious doctrine is completely incompatible with this because their ideas impact the suffering of others (e.g., violence to implement Sharia law; excluding, hurting and killing gay people, treating women like second class citizens etc.).

If religious people would simply leave others alone to live their lives peacefully there would be no issue here. But they don't and won't.

[CarlosAlberto]

^ It must seriously hurt your fingers to type that much crap. Seriously.... STOP TYPING.

[qolbinau]

I can't tell if my intellectual (I use the term loosely) opponents here are either deeply religious or don't know anything about religion, don't know anyone who has been impacted negatively by religion, or don't understand the relationship between belief and behaviour etc. However, I will be sure to keep my posts within the size of a tweet if it is then easier to process. 

[A Director]

qolbinau said: "I can't tell if my intellectual (I use the term loosely) opponents here are either deeply religious or don't know anything about religion, don't know anyone who has been impacted negatively by religion, or don't understand the relationship between belief and behaviour etc. However, I will be sure to keep my posts within the size of a tweet if it is then easier to process. 

Have you ever read anything about Islam  not written by Sam Harris?  Change a word or two in any of your posts  and  they would sound similar to posts by Evangelicals.  New Atheists like  Sam Harris  give Atheists a bad  name.   You are becoming more dogmatic  day  by day.  Instead of  posting,  grab  some  lotion, listen to the WAR PAINT  cast  recording  and JO!

 

"