The religion of peace strikes again.

[South Florida]

qolbinau, you were wrong about Bernie Sanders, and you're wrong about this issue.  The more you write, Carlos is right, the more you bury yourself.

[qolbinau]

I have no idea who Carlos is, but excuse me? Who is the president right now? And I was wrong about Bernie Sanders? LOL. I am one of the few here that suggested there was a real chance Hillary could lose to Trump because we actually had the evidence to believe it in terms of polling data before the primaries were even over. 

And RE: this issue. There is no substance to your post so I don't even know how to reply except my sound bite (unless you want to actually respond with substance) - my views are shared by intellectual atheist elites across the world. We are ahead of our time - the public has not been able to catch up to these views yet. But they will and are. If you look at facebook comments towards the BBC there are a growing following of people who recognise that the issue is, and has always been, religion. Stop denying the truth. Stop lying to people.

[qolbinau]

..

[javero]

"my views are shared by intellectual atheist elites across the world. We are ahead of our time - the public has not been able to catch up to these views yet."

We are all too well aware of your bona fides.  Good luck in your ministry.

[bethnor]

christopher hitchens fell out of favor with the left, but he was dead right about everything re: religion.  a criticism of his that is oft missed by apologists is that religion cultivates a need for a master and commander, basically paving the way for dictators.  which is exactly what happened in the last election.  it's clear that trump doesn't know adam from eve or genesis from corinthians, but the evangelicals didn't care.  he flat out reneges on his promises and they don't care.  it's easy as pie to find artwork depicting him as an religious icon. 

[javero]

I remain a fan of Hitchens and an avowed atheist.  But, I'm neither a Hitchens d*ck-worshiper nor dogmatic in my refutation of the beliefs of others.  We have little choice but give others time to evolve from their present truth to the realm of rationale thought.  I don't see the immediate benefits of beating them over the head with the message.  Carry on as you wish though.

[qolbinau]

I get and respect that. If there was a goal for these posts it would be less to beat religious people over the head but to try and convince people to understand that these attacks are religiously motivated - it seems the entire left has been sold this lie that it has nothing to do with Islam, Islam is a religion of peace, it's due to Western intervention (as if terrorism only affects Western countries - we are but a drop in the ocean), bad people do bad things or they are mentally ill etc. - they'll do anything they can to explain it away or blame ourselves - anything to not appear 'racist' (as if this has anything to do with race). But at the heart of it these people genuinely believe what they say they believe and think they are doing their service to God. It makes perfect, rational, logical sense based on their belief system/religious texts. And I don't see how we will ever solve this if we can't at least acknowledge the truth. 



Listen to extremists speak - listen to their motivations and what they believe, and it is clear. 

Not to even mention the other atrocities of this religion that we need to keep stamping down. The way the left are able to excuse or sometimes even promote the misogyny and homophobia in this belief system is so hypocritical and bizarre. 



 

 

 

[qolbinau]

It is always refreshing to hear from Muslims themselves who are victims of their belief system that have the confidence to speak out against it. The gay muslims and ex-muslims I know in particular whose lives and social networks are destroyed by their religion deserve better (many Christians in the same boat, too). 

"In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Sarah Haider about her organization Ex-Muslims of North America, how the political Left is confused about Islam, “rape culture” under Islam, honesty without bigotry, stealth theocracy, immigration, the prospects of reforming Islam, and other topics."

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/leaving-islam

 

[ErikJ972]

Refreshing? I happens ALL THE TIME.

Do you actually know any Muslims? Judging from the ignorance you display in this thread my guess would be no.

[Dave28282]

I actually know quite a few Muslims and am shocked about how alienated from the world they are.

There is a very important point that some get to experience and these are mostly people who feel victimized by Islam, for example gay people or other people who feel their freedom is taken away. That point is: Realizing that islam is not your identity. That is very hard and scary for some, because they grew up by the idea that it is. I have learned that only when people are forced to understand this by certain life experiences, they will learn who they are. Human.

Like I have said before: teaching our children this (parents and schools) is the most important thing.

Edit: Therefore you can not BE Muslim. You can DO Muslim.

[qolbinau]

Ok I think the word "ignorant" needs to be removed from the face of this earth along with religion - do you know how stupid it looks to throw out these buzzwords with no thought?

And of COURSE I know Muslims. Have you read my posts? I know many gay Muslims in particular that have been threatened to be killed, have wasted their lives with no relationships or remain closeted and/or isolated from their religion because of this awful belief system. Of course, they don't have good things to say about Islam. The only people that seem to have good things to say about it are privileged white kool aid identity politics adherents who don't seem to care at all about the truth - or Muslims for that matter -because Muslims are the real victims of this awful, awful religion. 

I'm convinced It'll take George Takei or Hillary Clinton or some other 'leader' to convince people here to break free from the shackles of their left-wing identity to understand that it is not a progressive thing to defend one of the most harmful belief systems on this earth. If you actually care about Muslims do yourselves a favour and search google to read stories about the atrocities Islam inflicts on Muslim people. If you care about Muslims you'd want to see them free from their religion, not defend it. 

[ErikJ972]

"Ok I think the word "ignorant" needs to be removed from the face of this earth along with religion - do you know how stupid it looks to throw out these buzzwords with no thought?"

Ha! Unfortunately I have read your posts. You should take your own advice.

[qolbinau]

The major difference between basically all my posts and anyone that shouts ridiculous buzzwords at me is I always have actual points and am making arguments. It's impossible to react to **** like your replies to the point where I'd rather you ignore or block. Like, what does your reply say about the gay Muslims who are victims of homophobia from their religion or female Muslims who are treated like dirt? Or Muslims who are being blown up daily in Pakistan from Islamic extremists who want to impose their conservative Islamic interpretation in the country? It says nothing. If you don't want to contribute I actually think you shouldn't bother. You are wasting your time and my time. You have contributed nothing. 

[ErikJ972]

Ignorance is a buzzword? Since when? Is it a buzzword like throwing out Sam Harris' name? As if people who disagree with you couldn't possibly be smart enough to know who Sam Harris is?

My point is your post that I responded to indicated that it was unusual for Muslims to speak out against harm caused by their religion.

It is NOT unusual and actually happens quite frequently. You seem to be unaware of this. Hence the use of the word ignorant. Wilfully ignorant is probably more accurate.

[kdogg36]

Erik, I agree with you that it's not at all unusual for Muslims in the U.S. to critique their own religion. I've heard many such criticisms and calls for reform among my classmates, students, and colleagues.

However, I suspect that this is not happening nearly so much in those majority-Muslim countries where women, LGBT people, and members of religious minorities are most in peril.

[Kad]

ErikJ972 said: " Wilfully ignorant is probably more accurate."

No, he's just an aspiring member of the atheist elite intelligentsia and is shaking his head over the fact that the overwhelming majority of the world's population isn't as enlightened as he is.

 

[wonderfulwizard11]

Of course he also fails to mention the man in London who purposefully attacked Muslims leaving a mosque a few days ago, since that doesn't fit his strict narrative. 

[mar6411]

Kad said: "ErikJ972 said: " Wilfully ignorant is probably more accurate."

No, he's just an aspiring member of the atheist elite intelligentsia and is shaking his head over the fact that the overwhelming majority of the world's population isn't as enlightened as he is.

 Perfect.

 

[mar6411]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that qolbinau and Dave19 are - for themselves - a match made in heaven.  Although I guess heaven doesn't exist.  But the two of them are like a special place in hell.  Although I guess hell doesn't exist.  How lucky.

[kdogg36]

Religion is a chosen association, not an innate characteristic, so it is entirely right to use religion as a factor on which to judge an individual - one among many, to be sure. I regard the choice to be Muslim as very similar to the choice to be a Republican. There's plenty of room for wonderful people in each group, but I have to put it in the negative column rather than the positive. On balance, both Islam and Republicanism stand in the way of progress and freedom in the world.

That's nothing special about Islam, though. I could switch out Islam for Mormonism, Catholicism, or any of several other benighted philosophies and the last paragraph would be equally true.

[qolbinau]

wonderfulwizard11 said: "Of course he also fails to mention the man in London who purposefully attacked Muslims leaving a mosque a few days ago, since that doesn't fit his strict narrative. 

 

"

That is simply not true. I discussed that in another thread. 

re: Muslims speaking out - of course it is not UNHEARD of but I think it would be very VERY disingenuous indeed not to acknowledge there are severe consequences for Muslims speaking out against their religion - especially in Islamic countries - but also in western countries because of the backlash in the Islamic community (Why does the organisation 'ex muslims' exist who actually at times fear for their safety and have to have security protocols to protect themselves?) and the 'liberal' discourse - who accuse anyone of critising the religion - INCLUDING MUSLIMS - as racist, bigoted or right wing. This is a belief system that is not safe to speak out against and  is not criticised enough.

And Kad - you make fun but your paragraph perfectly describes the situation. If you are not an atheist of course you are not enlightened or close to the truth, which unfortunately does describe the overwhelming majority of the population. And if you are a 'liberal' that won't acknowledge the absolute atrocities that Islam causes for Muslims mainly and some non-Muslims across the world, how can you really describe yourself as a progressive person or think you actually care about Muslims? 

I just hope that the disagreement here is with my tone or arrogance etc  - no one seems to directly respond here to my post but if you honestly believe there is nothing wrong with religion and this particular belief system in particular I don't know what possible evidence you could need to convince otherwise. I would have thought the human rights violations and terrorist attacks would be enough  

 

[javero]

In many households and/or extended families (or tribes), religion is not a chosen association, at least not for children in those contexts who are treated as wards of their parents/elders.  To me, that's the first and most pernicious level of indoctrination.  Furthermore, as recently as 30 years ago in the Old South inter-faith marriages were frowned upon.  Further back, I vividly recall family members whose parents forbade them from marrying Free Will Baptists because we were Pentecostal Holiness communionists, talking about splitting hairs.  And I'm embarrassed to admit that I have a young 20-something cousin who was thrown out by her parents at 18 years old after coming out as a lesbian and refusing to repent of her sinful lifestyle.  I and several other family members gave her shelter for a spell and helped her get on her feet.  She recently became the first family member to tie the knot with a member of the same sex.  Her parents were not in attendance.

I write all this to suggest that, for some still, religion is a yoke that they can't break free of until they're emancipated from their parents.  Until then, they have little choice in the matter.

[kdogg36]

javero said: "I write all this to suggest that, for some still, religion is a yoke that they can't break free of until they're emancipated from their parents.  Until then, they have little choice in the matter."

This is true, of course, so I'll be more precise: For adults in relatively free countries, religion is entirely a choice. I know this as an intimate fact, having turned away from the darkness of Catholicism long ago.

[Dave28282]

javero said: "I write all this to suggest that, for some still, religion is a yoke that they can't break free of until they're emancipated from their parents.  Until then, they have little choice in the matter."

 

I agree. And they grow up thinking religion is their identity, which per definition is radical, as it creates dangerous individuals because they lose touch with reality. All the left lemmings in this discussion who do not understand that are polluting society too and are completely unaware of the effects.

The fact that we and Qolbinau get so much world alienated reactions here maybe shows that the world deserves to be a mess and does not deserve any better.

Let gays be killed, keep on indoctrinating kids and dance in circles and be happy.

 

[bethnor]

wonderfulwizard11 said: "Of course he also fails to mention the man in London who purposefully attacked Muslims leaving a mosque a few days ago, since that doesn't fit his strict narrative. 

 

"

it fits the narrative just fine--the "people of the book" are going to kill each other, and everyone else in between.  you might find some who protest this increasingly shrill, but it's in part because we think it's utter madness that we're killing each other literally over 2000 year old fairy tales from the desert. 

and before someone says it... yes, racism is going to exist anyway no matter what we do, but religion is always tinder to the fire precisely because it makes contentious claims that are not open to testing.  we are all from africa, we are one species.  no matter how progressively you outline religion, all of them, to a certain degree, say that is not true, that god(s) made a special deal with some people and screw all the rest.  since god never ever ever appears and says, "do it this way," it's left to his conveniently self-appointed representatives to act in his name, and oddly, their statements are always in their own self-interests.  aren't liberals supposed to criticize racism?  it's racist to say the creator of the universe made a special deal with only people from the middle east and europe, and screw all of us from asia, africa, the amercas... well, the entire rest of the world.  enough.

[bethnor]

javero said: "I remain a fan of Hitchens and an avowed atheist.  But, I'm neither a Hitchens d*ck-worshiper nor dogmatic in my refutation of the beliefs of others.  We have little choice but give others time to evolve from their present truth to the realm of rationale thought.  I don't see the immediate benefits of beating them over the head with the message.  Carry on as you wish though.

 

"

but we're not even doing that.  i "carry on" because by pure accident, i am lucky enough to have escaped the worst of this, and unlike many LGBT, i make enough money to take care of myself.  i've lived a good life on this planet, but it doesn't belong to me or anyone else posting in this thread.  future generations deserve a chance, but the way the abrahamic traditions are carrying on, we are a stone's throw away from something terrible.