Deaths, injuries after reports of explosion at Ariana Grande concert at Manchester Arena

[wonderfulwizard11]

Kad said: "Broadway Joe said: "Kad said: "Do you not worry about being shot in a movie theater or a school or a church, like those massacres carried out by non-Muslims in Colorado, Connecticut, or South Carolina?" 

All awful events but none of those were done in the name of a religion. Obviously all Muslims aren't terrorists, that's not my point but this religion has a horrible problem with numerous different aspects around the world that shouldn't be acceptable and needs to be changed. "

All were carried out by individuals with radical beliefs. What does it matter if it they were secular beliefs or religious? Doctrines needn't be religious to be followed and stretched to a dangerous extreme. The Third Reich justified their ethnic cleansing through science."

Well said. Christianity still gets stretched to idealogical extremes all the time- just last year a man bombed a Planned Parenthood in Colorado and killed three people. Christianity, through conversion therapy, is responsible for the torture and eventual suicide of how many gay people? All radical ideology is bad, but that doesn't justify singling out one religion or ethnic group. There are ways to combat it, but that isn't helpful. 

[songanddanceman2]

Let's be honest, all organised religion causes or has caused mass death, judgment, oppression and more. And I couldn't give a damn about the bombers name, he's irrelevant and deserves zero mentions. Thanks for clearing that up by the way Broadway Joe x

 

I will say one thing political today as it angers me, American government needs to stop giving so much money to Middle East like Saudi Arabia when they have members that are suspected of funding terrorism. We need to stop funding and giving arms to those who use it to hate us, American government is the worst for this (this has nothing to do with the US people who I love). Putting more money in to the Arms of violence and war is not helping us, it's helping them. 

[PalJoey]

.

Please, Allah--don't let this thread descend into more of qolbinau's inane verbal diarrhea.

Please, Jeebus! Please Yahweh.

 

[Broadway Joe]

songanddanceman2 said: "I will say one thing political today as it angers me, American government needs to stop giving so much money to Middle East like Saudi Arabia when they have members that are suspected of funding terrorism. We need to stop funding and giving arms to those who use it to hate us, American government is the worst for this (this has nothing to do with the US people who I love). Putting more money in to the Arms of violence and war is not helping us, it's helping them."

I absolutely agree with all of this. 

[Jane2]

Kad said "...you haven't even been discussing terrorism in this thread. Not every critical comment people make is intended to include"

It's pretty obvious that I'm on the side of discussing terrorism in this thread. I'm part of the group that is being chastised. None of us were named individually, so yes, it is about me.

The chip you have on your shoulder for me is showing.

[songanddanceman2]

Jane, move on.

[Jane2]

I thought I had until I saw that last post of Kad's. I'm not the only one who needs to move on, song.

This whole thread should end.

[Cat Guy]

A Vigil to honor and remember the victims will soon begin in Manchester.  That will remain my focus.

[Mister Matt]

No one is directly blaming the religion, just as no one would directly blame the religion of christianity for a racist who happens to be christian.

So, this is your first day in the United States?  Conservative hypocritical morons ALWAYS blame the religion (as well as any country in the Middle East).  ALWAYS.  They usually happen to be the racists who claim to be Christians as well.  This has been business as usual in the US since 9/11.  One must admit and acknowledge the pervasive nature of American Christian ignorance and hypocrisy in order to eventually quash it.  Naivety is dangerous and, in every case, downright deadly.  SHAME ON YOU.

It has everything to do with Islam.

As long as we raise people with the idea that their identity is defined by a god/religion, we create people disconnected from the human mind and those people will never truly understand right from wrong.

Wrong.  It has everything to do with the attacker's ideology they claim to be acting on.  You don't know who claims religion is their "full identity" or not.  You don't know the extent of any stranger's "identity"/  There are FAR more religious followers that are not terrorists.  If you think everyone who follows religion "will never truly understand right from wrong" and that it is religion itself that leads to terrorism, OR that every terrorist claims their religion is their "full identity", then you do not understand how many religious people actually exist in the world.  Or how many people are coerced and controlled into their involvement base on political/economic change.  Your religious bigotry is part of the problem.  Shame on you.

It is time to acknowledge that the religion of Islam is at a time of reckoning and must go through its own reformation; just as Christianity once did.

Yeah.  That worked so well.  Christianity has only been peaceful and lovely since the year 1685.

It's a religion that hasn't evolved.

You believe all Muslims are the same?  If all Muslims were like one of the terrorists, we would all be dead already.

Strength and compassion mean very little if you're dead, and not around to experience/witness it. 

That is quite possibly the most pointless, thoughtless, heartless and stupidest remark I've ever read on these boards.

Judaism, Catholicism, Christianity and even Buddhism (to an extent) have gone through a transformation/evolution.

First, Catholicism is part of Christianity.  Second, what do you think will be achieved by restoration?  You think Christianity and Catholicism are much improved?  More peaceful?  Which cult do you subscribe to?  The Alternative Fact Church of Latter-Day Blame?

Let's be honest, all organised religion causes or has caused mass death, judgment, oppression and more.

Precisely.  Pre- and Post-Reformation, as if reformation is indicative of anything.

[Liza's Headband]

I'll say it again: Islam has never gone through reformation. Now is the time. Whether that ultimately kills the root of its radical perversion or not is impossible to know, but it would be a positive first step in the right direction. 

[Jane2]

Since the Quron contains so many verses dealing with waging war on non believers, what prompted the worldwide terrorist  attacks we've been seeing in recent years, since 9/11. There have been non believers since day one. I'm guessing it's the change of guard.

[Mister Matt]

I'll say it again

Why?  What is your precedent that reformation reduces extremism and violence in the name of any religion?

[Liza's Headband]

Would you rather we do absolutely nothing to stem the radical perversion of the Islamic faith? 

[Miss American]

Would you?

[kdogg36]

adamgreer said: "I'm shocked and appalled that so many people in here want to wipe out an entire religion."

Personally, I'd like to wipe out all of them. Religion is ****ing stupid. There's no big daddy in the sky listening to anyone's insane rantings.

ETA: I won't erase history, or deny that this comment is in accord with my thinking on the matter of religion, but I regret expressing my thoughts in this manner. This is a discussion which can only operate on reason and persuasion, and my comment clearly did not contribute to that. I only want to "wipe out" religion by convincing people to think in a different way, and hostile language like mine is antithetical to that goal.

[Broadway Joe]

kdogg36 said: "adamgreer said: "I'm shocked and appalled that so many people in here want to wipe out an entire religion."

Personally, I'd like to wipe out all of them. Religion is ****ing stupid. There's no big daddy in the sky listening to anyone's insane rantings.

"

Agreed there, at least we would only be fighting over resources and money if that happened.  

[Mister Matt]

Would you rather we do absolutely nothing to stem the radical perversion of the Islamic faith?

That question has nothing to do with your oft-repeated theory of reformation as some sort of a solution.  You are the one citing other religions as examples.  Since you are so fond of repetition, what is your precedent that reformation reduces extremism and violence in the name of any religion?  

I think your repetition needs reformation.

[songanddanceman2]

The Vigil happening here in Manchester right now should show people what kind of city we are.

[Jane2]

There's no reason to doubt what kind of city you are. Too bad that does't affect terrorists. The beauty of the city probably angers them even more.

[ErikJ972]

The attacker was born and raised in Britain. Most of these attacks have been carried out by home grown terrorists.

Instead of attacking Islam I think a better approach would be to stop and figure out what is making these young men feel so disenfranchised they strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent people.

[songanddanceman2]

Indeed, but they won't win here, not today, not any other day. Seeing every religion, atheists, gays, straight, trans all out today in memory is something they can't break. That's why that has to remain the most important thing. We have Muslims handing out free food, sikhs handing out free drinks, trans and gays hugging builders and big butch blokes, kids of all colours holding hands. Sometimes that is the answer. 

[Mister Matt]

The attacker was born and raised in Britain. Most of these attacks have been carried out by home grown terrorists.

The conservative bigots will never acknowledge that.  They need to blame immigrants and foreigners and Islam and [insert Middle-Eastern country name here].  They need to tell other religions what to do, such as "reformation" because it makes them feel better to say "do as we say, not as we do".  Empowerment comes from saying "we know better" even though we really have no evidence to back it up.  It's the same condescending hypocrisy that inflames extremists and leads to violence and electing Trump.

[madbrian]

songanddanceman2 said: "Indeed, but they won't win here, not today, not any other day. Seeing every religion, atheists, gays, straight, trans all out today in memory is something they can't break. That's why that has to remain the most important thing. We have Muslims handing out free food, sikhs handing out free drinks, trans and gays hugging builders and big butch blokes, kids of all colours holding hands. Sometimes that is the answer."

I agree with every word of this, other than the spelling of "colours."

[SNAFU]

 "The attacker was born and raised in Britain. Most of these attacks have been carried out by home grown terrorists."

How many times have I argued this point over the past few years? We have to find what the trigger is that causes these young kids (most of them are in their 20's) to become radicalized. From what I have been told (I have not witnessed it myself) The Muslim community in Europe is treated differently then they are here. Well, that is until 9/11 and the recent courting of the Xeno and Islamiphobes by the Trump campaign. Until we fully understand that, we will never be able to really fight terrorism. You can't put boots to ground to fight an ideology.

 

[qolbinau]

..

[qolbinau]

So in the most shocking news of the century it is now confirmed to be an Islamic terrorist attack.  I urge readers here - if you have one bit of intellectual integrity do not get distracted by the irrelevant arguments some have brought up against this claim because it doesn't make it any less true. It should not surprise anyone that the attacker was born in the U.K. (To refugee parents) because religious beliefs are not a nationality, race or ethnicity! It should not surprise anyone that Muslims helped with the recovery because the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful people in spite of not because of their religious ideology. 

Why could we almost perfectly predict this outcome without knowing for sure it was an Islamic terrorist? Why would a statistical model predict this almost perfectly ? Because there clearly is a relationship between religious beliefs and terrorism. It's non-random. 

Please accept this fact and don't deny the blatant truth. This does not mean that all Muslims are terrorists. But it means - as obviously demonstrated - there is a relationship between religious idealogy and terrorism. Don't reduce it to a few unusual individuals because the attacks have been too frequent and too systematic for this to be the case. 

We need to 1. Recognise there is a problem and 2. Think about what can we done. In the long term, this will involve improving our education systems and teaching people to think critically so they do not accept false ideas as true. Imagine a world without religious idealogies intercepting government policy across the world. Where gay people can be free. Where women can be free. Where there is less violence. Where the major parties of the USA do not spend time debating issues that are grounded in religious beliefs but on issues that have a tangible and scientific rationale. Where people accept the reality of science and climate change.

We need to have a second enlightenment period. One characteristic of clear reasoning and intellectual honesty. 

Other ideas for a reformation are also important. Do not stop Muslims and ex Muslims from critiquing their own religion because they are the main victims. They are dying in terrorist attacks at higher numbers, are punished for leaving their religion, for thinking freely, for being gay, and if a woman often treated poorly. They need our help.

Last - we need to stop thinking about this in left wing and right wing terms. In the USA at least, no party sufficiently represents the agenda of rational atheists. Left wing people are too sympathetic towards religious groups (and are usually religious themselves - look at how the Clinton campaign tried to hurt Bernie by outing him as an atheist. Terrible). Right wing people are actually the kind of conservative ideologies found in Islam and Christianity we need to speak out against becaue of the social harm it is doing to this world.

The issue is not one religion - it's ALL religions. But if there was a priority of course it would be Islam. At a global scale it is the most conservative and the most violent. But Christianity does not get a free pass. Far from it. 

To try and distinguish from the right wing perspective remember the issue is NOT Muslims. The issue is their belief system; religion and ideas - which is like a loaded gun ready to be used and twisted for heinous acts. Focus the discussion on their religion not their person. Muslims are mostly good people in spite of not because of their religion.