Deaths, injuries after reports of explosion at Ariana Grande concert at Manchester Arena

[javero]

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

[Dave28282]

Kad said: "But it's still going toward "everyone should think for themselves... so they won't think a certain way."

Everyone should think for themselves, in a way that is challenging, viewed from multiple angles, with reasoning. So they won't think in just 1 way. 

1 religion's views on, for example, homosexuality are not enough. It's not bad because your god tells you so.

 

 

[Jane2]

"It seems that if someone is convinced that his god is his guide, the line of sanity/insanity easily disappears."

There must be something wrong with a person who reads the Quron (Koran) or is preached to and hears that he must go out and kill everyone who disagrees with him, and thinks that's ok.

[Mister Matt]

It seems that if someone is convinced that his god is his guide, the line of sanity/insanity easily disappears.

I guess it would seem that way to you because that is your belief.  You have no proof of "insanity", just that you believe they have to be insane.  Meanwhile, those of us who know people with religious identities who aren't insane and are actually objective, intelligent and rational might believe that perhaps when you are convinced that your arrogance and ego are your guides, the line of sanity/insanity easily disappears.

1 religion's views on, for example, homosexuality are not enough. It's not bad because your god tells you so.

I'll remind my uncle, the Episcopal priest, or my friend, the Methodist pastor, both of whom requested to officiate our (gay) marriage.  But I'll use the word "one" instead of the number 1.

[Dave28282]

Yes, definitely. And that doesn't happen overnight. This person clearly thinks Allah is his identity, because he is willing to kill himself for him. This starts in upbringing and indoctrination.

[Dave28282]

Mister Matt said: "I guess it would seem that way to you because that is your belief.  You have no proof of "insanity", just that you believe they have to be insane."

I think killing innocent children and adults at a concert in the name of your god is insane. That is not my belief. That is not sane. That is evil on a human level. I understand that you and the killer don't understand this and what your god whispers in your ear might be your reality, but that is still insane. Even if it's about innocent subjects.

Mister Matt said: " I'll remind my uncle, the Episcopal priest, or my friend, the Methodist pastor, both of whom requested to officiate our (gay) marriage.  But I'll use the word "one" instead of the number 1."

Yes, it's great that anyone can make up what their god thinks, even 2 Christians sitting on the same bench in the front of the church with opposite views on homosexuality. Whatever you like to call it, those 2 Christians do not have the same belief. And yet, both fully convinced that god is behind them. He's not. He does not hate and love homosexuality at the same time. Everything comes out of yourself. Don't hide behind a god. I understand that's hard when you're indoctrinated and have no idea what your identity is besides that, but that is the whole problem and the core of this discussion.

 

 

[qolbinau]

A couple of points:

* Discouraging the indoctrination of children and giving them a wide education (including a wide religious education of ALL religions, of reasoning skills and scientific methodology and facts) is not the same thing as replacing one indoctrination with another. My education system is teaching people how to think, not what to think. It's the opposite of indoctrination because it is not selectively giving people information. They are exposed to wide information they can be critical towards. 

 

* The idea that some people claim this is thought police is also equally absurd because again - it's not telling people they have to think in a certain way or not. It's exposing people to wide ideas so they can choose. The exact opposite of religious indoctrination! The goal is not to round up religious people and gas them but to simply give them a wide education so they can choose for themselves.    

 

* The claims that this belief system - of atheism and science is like a religion is also absurd. Religion is about faith. Atheism, science, logic is about evidence. And we know it works because planes fly. Computers run. Doctors heal (NOT prayers). 

 

* The idea that I think religion causes all issues is not accurate. Of course not all issues are caused by religion. But this doesn't mean we don't pay attention to the issues caused by religion. The claim "they'll find something else to justify their hate" is also very thoughtless. It 1. downplays the causal relationship between religion and negative attitudes e.g. Towards gay people, and 2. The casual factors of religious belief in terrorism such as the belief in significant reward in the afterlife or that their behaviour is carrying out god's work. While I'm sure some people might try to use their religion to justify their behaviour don't forget that their behaviour can also be the result of their religious beliefs. 

 

* Mister Matt, I think your idea that my first bullet point re: the negative impact of religion on attitudes, behaviours etc. is subjective says a lot about you. I mean yes I'm sure religion does a lot of good and an even whole lot more lot of nothing, but how anyone could ignore the impact of religion on outcomes such as gay attitudes, women's rights, terrorism, public policy, scientific progress etc. is just idiotic. Even just a small amount of negative outcomes does not justify people holding fictitious views about nothing. 

 

 

[qolbinau]

And just a comment about myself given some people decided to question my sanity haha. I think it is clear to everyone by now - I mean I've been posting here for almost 10 years - that I like humour. Self deprication and parody. I love to troll. But I promise you I am not one of those crazy recently joined trolls we get here that don't make any rational sense. I am thinking about what I am writing (perhaps that might come as a surprise to some haha). For those that are reading carefully and thinking about what I'm saying, even if you don't agree with it (though it gives me hope I do have some small supporters). I thank you. 

[Dave28282]

Amen

[Mister Matt]

I think killing innocent children and adults at a concert in the name of your god is insane. That is not my belief. That is not sane. That is evil on a human level. I understand that you and the killer don't understand this and what your god whispers in your ear might be your reality, but that is still insane. Even if it's about innocent subjects.

Yeah, using that to prove your previous statement is not an example of critical or objective thinking.  And your inclusion and presumption of me in that manner only lends more credence to the prospect of your insanity, not mine.

Whatever you like to call it, those 2 Christians do not have the same belief.

Apparently, you like to call them insane.

This person clearly thinks Allah is his identity, because he is willing to kill himself for him.

You really love the word "identity", don't you?  Don't tell me...it's your story and your sticking to it!  Like Trump and "Loser"!

This starts in upbringing and indoctrination.

Sometimes it's one and not the other.  Or neither.  Or both.

[Liza's Headband]

It seems Mister Matt is unable to let things go and know when it's time to walk away.... Been stuck in TX too long, dude. 

[Dave28282]

Mister Matt said: "and many already know more and still choose the opposite of what you want."

First of all, you have to be very careful with the word "choose". Indoctrinated religious people may think it's a choice while in fact it's not. They just don't know any better due to one-sided exposure.

Secondly, what I want is exposing people to wide ideas so they can choose. The exact opposite of religious indoctrination. If people want the opposite of this (no wide ideas is the opposite) it has a reason. 

[qolbinau]

If people are exposed to a wide education - a wide range of religions (and therefore can start to think about the contradictions between them and likely aiteology of religion), high quality science classes (and therefore can see that the world likely did not derive as described in genesis), reasoning/logic classes (and can therefore see that many religious claims do not make any sense, selectively attend to certain information or are contradictory) and then STILL choose a religious path, then so be it. I'd personally call that stupidity. But no one should be told what to believe. 

[CarlosAlberto]

My posts get deleted but the useless bullish!t remains. 

[Cat Guy]

I feel sorry for Miss Grande.  She's a young and talented performer who will forever be linked to this tragedy.  That's a lot to handle.  I hope she has a support system to see her through this difficult time.   

[Mister Matt]

First of all, you have to be very careful with the word "choose". 

I was,.  It was intentional.

Been stuck in TX too long, dude.

Wow.  I bet you put all your thought into that one, didn't you?  

[qolbinau]

Out of curiosity Mister Matt, what kind of affiliation do you have with religion and religious beliefs? (you mention you have close family that work in that 'industry'. I'm curious if you are non-religious but sympathetic to it (and see it as morally wrong and impractical for us to go about eradicating it) or you are actually religious yourself.

 

[PalJoey]

 

For those that are reading carefully and thinking about what I'm saying, even if you don't agree with it (though it gives me hope

 

No one reads your idiotic blather. Everyone thinks you're creepy.

 

[qolbinau]

Creepy is such an odd word that does not make any sense in this context, but ok. You see PalJoey it's so hard to respond to a post like that because there is no substance or argument in that post. All I can do is repeat what I said earlier that I come from perspective and share the same arguments as some of the world's most esteemed atheists and scientists, so I will sleep easy.

Of course, I know you're probably still bitter at me for the Hillary vs Bernie Sanders times. But I don't know what else to say except, you clearly ended up being wrong about that so perhaps it's time to move on :P? 

[songanddanceman2]

*shakes head*

[UncleCharlie]

qolbinau said: "If people are exposed to a wide education - a wide range of religions (and therefore can start to think about the contradictions between them and likely aiteology of religion), high quality science classes (and therefore can see that the world likely did not derive as described in genesis), reasoning/logic classes (and can therefore see that many religious claims do not make any sense, selectively attend to certain information or are contradictory) and then STILL choose a religious path, then so be it. I'd personally call that stupidity. But no one should be told what to believe. 

 

"I think everyone should be exposed to a wide education and be taught how to think intellectually with ironclad reasoning and logic just like me. They should certainly be educated on all the religions so they can make an informed choice. And after understanding that all religions are contradictory and based on nothing, do not make any sense and basically full of crap, the informed choice they should make of course, is to recognize like me, that there is no logical reason whatsoever to have any faith based affiliation and there is no place for or need for religion in any competent thinker's life. If however, someone insists on still choosing to have some religious or faith based beliefs, I will view them as stupid but I can't force them to stop believing so I will have to accept it as misguided as they are."

 

Solid argument bro. Can't believe you're not getting more converts. Oh, and mad props to you for right after the bombing was announced, while the rest of us were shocked and consumed with profound sadness and concern for the victims and their families, you skipped all that and were already working back of the napkin statistical probability models to beat the rush in assigning blame. That is righteous! To quote the great Bill Murray, "I wanna party with you, cowboy!".

[qolbinau]

You have actually paraphrased my argument pretty well, I appreciate that. 

I'm happy to let others #hug and #love and talk about how Islam is a religion of peace - I'm showing respect in other ways by thinking about how in the long-term we can ensure this will never happen again. And when this happens again (and mark my words it will, I just hope I don't know any victims or I'm not a victim) I'll do the same thing again. And again. And again until hopefully people start to stand up and realise that there are some ideas that are too dangerous to be on this earth. I would have thought 9/11 would have been enough to demonstrate this, but clearly not. 

[A Director]

qolbinau  I'll do the same thing again. And again. And again until hopefully people start to stand up and realise that there are some ideas that are too dangerous to be on this earth. I would have thought 9/11 would have been enough to demonstrate this, but clearly not. 

You are a moron!  Your comment about "too dangerous' ideas is another proof you are bat**** crazy.  You  are sounding like a rightwing fundamentalist.  Your comment is making terrorists smile.

 

 

 

[qolbinau]

Only a regressive leftist would ever claim that wanting to get rid of conservative right-wing, discriminatory, violent and false ideologies is somehow 'right-wing'. Only a regressive leftist would ever claim that wanting people to receive the education they deserve instead of being told false information or given selective information is somehow 'right-wing'. 

The left are so hypocritical and have got it so wrong they have become right-wing. 

If you are a true progressive person you should have anti-theism on your agenda. It is the major cause of oppression towards gay people, women, transgendered people, violent terrorist attacks, anti-science policies such as rejecting climate change etc. 

I'm not crazy - I'm just not stupid enough to see that the root cause of so many issues we face is indeed religion. And because I actually am a progressive person I can see this. Wake up! We've just had 22 people killed. 

Gay people are being murdered. 

Women are being treated as second class citizens. 

The earth is dying.

Have some strength and actually tackle the real issue head-on. We owe it to the people who will hopefully have the opportunity to reside on this earth for the next thousand years that we don't let this barbaric thinking continue. 

If you want to know how you can help - see my list of bullet points on the earlier pages. It starts with acknowledging the problem and fighting to make sure our children receive the proper education they deserve. 

[UncleCharlie]

qolbinau said: "You have actually paraphrased my argument pretty well, I appreciate that. 

I'm happy to let others #hug and #love and talk about how Islam is a religion of peace - I'm showing respect in other ways by thinking about how in the long-term we can ensure this will never happen again. And when this happens again (and mark my words it will, I just hope I don't know any victims or I'm not a victim) I'll do the same thing again. And again. And again until hopefully people start to stand up and realise that there are some ideas that are too dangerous to be on this earth. I would have thought 9/11 would have been enough to demonstrate this, but clearly not. "

 

So true!!! It's just a shame not everyone has your level of enlightenment and wisdom. If we could just 86 those pesky religious nuts, you know, the 7 billion people who have religious beliefs, not only would we never have to worry about a terrorist act like this again, but with all those people out of the picture parking downtown would be a hell of a lot easier.  With no religion, we'd never have to fear terrorists acts again cause as we know, none have ever been done based on skin color or gender or sexual orientation or nationality or accent. It's religion man. Get rid of it and we'd never have this type of thing happen again, God willing... oops, sorry bro, my bad. Force of habit and all that. 

Man, reading your writings is like going to college all over again only this time, I'm learning something. We should all just think exactly like you. And what I appreciate even more is that you just restate the same argument over and over again. If people didn't agree the first 9 times, surely with the exact same arguments being repeated, they'll see the light that 10th time. With you as our thought leader and with Old Racist Dave as your hype man, for the first time in a while, I have faith, uh, I mean I believe that we as a people have a chance. I haven't felt this good about things since the Rangers were in the Stanley Cup Finals 3 years ago. I'm sure you've forgotten more than I'll ever know but thank you for educating us on how to think (Not what to think but how to think... important distinction!). God bless you! Aw, damn, did it again. I mean rock on, my bro.

[qolbinau]

You know what, you're right. Let's not do anything. Let the islamists blow up our citizens. Let the republicans take away gay marriage, ban abortion, destroy our planet with their anti-scientific views on climate change. Let women be treated as the property of men and be banned from driving. Let gay people be thrown off buildings and excluded from their families. Let's redirect funding for HIV/AIDS research to communities that actually need it. Let's stop people using condoms so we can spread HIV across the world. Let's continue to give funding and tax breaks to religious organizations because they need it more than our hospitals, schools and infrastructure. Let's teach creationism not science. Let's protect our bathrooms from transgendered people. Let there be light. God bless religion and God bless America.