Deaths, injuries after reports of explosion at Ariana Grande concert at Manchester Arena

[qolbinau]

So in the most shocking news of the century it is now confirmed to be an Islamic terrorist attack.  I urge readers here - if you have one bit of intellectual integrity do not get distracted by the irrelevant arguments some have brought up against this claim because it doesn't make it any less true. It should not surprise anyone that the attacker was born in the U.K. (To refugee parents) because religious beliefs are not a nationality, race or ethnicity! It should not surprise anyone that Muslims helped with the recovery because the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful people in spite of not because of their religious ideology. 

Why could we almost perfectly predict this outcome without knowing for sure it was an Islamic terrorist? Why would a statistical model predict this almost perfectly ? Because there clearly is a relationship between religious beliefs and terrorism. It's non-random. 

Please accept this fact and don't deny the blatant truth. This does not mean that all Muslims are terrorists. But it means - as obviously demonstrated - there is a relationship between religious idealogy and terrorism. Don't reduce it to a few unusual individuals because the attacks have been too frequent and too systematic for this to be the case. 

We need to 1. Recognise there is a problem and 2. Think about what can we done. In the long term, this will involve improving our education systems and teaching people to think critically so they do not accept false ideas as true. Imagine a world without religious idealogies intercepting government policy across the world. Where gay people can be free. Where women can be free. Where there is less violence. Where the major parties of the USA do not spend time debating issues that are grounded in religious beliefs but on issues that have a tangible and scientific rationale. Where people accept the reality of science and climate change.

We need to have a second enlightenment period. One characteristic of clear reasoning and intellectual honesty. 

Other ideas for a reformation are also important. Do not stop Muslims and ex Muslims from critiquing their own religion because they are the main victims. They are dying in terrorist attacks at higher numbers, are punished for leaving their religion, for thinking freely, for being gay, and if a woman often treated poorly. They need our help.

Last - we need to stop thinking about this in left wing and right wing terms. In the USA at least, no party sufficiently represents the agenda of rational atheists. Left wing people are too sympathetic towards religious groups (and are usually religious themselves - look at how the Clinton campaign tried to hurt Bernie by outing him as an atheist. Terrible). Right wing people are actually the kind of conservative ideologies found in Islam and Christianity we need to speak out against becaue of the social harm it is doing to this world.

The issue is not one religion - it's ALL religions. But if there was a priority of course it would be Islam. At a global scale it is the most conservative and the most violent. But Christianity does not get a free pass. Far from it. 

To try and distinguish from the right wing perspective remember the issue is NOT Muslims. The issue is their belief system; religion and ideas - which is like a loaded gun ready to be used and twisted for heinous acts. Focus the discussion on their religion not their person. Muslims are mostly good people in spite of not because of their religion. 

[qolbinau]

It's also time for political leaders to realise that the public won't be duped by sweeping this relationship under the rug anymore - if it is only 'right-wing' parties that talk about this, we risk their election as they are the only ones who at least can acknowledge that people are thinking about the relationship between Islam and Terrorism and want someone to do something about it.

Sam Harris, atheist neuroscientist had some suggestions last year for how Hillary could speak about this topic more appropriately than Trump. He thought dealing with this topic could "prevent a swing toward Trump by voters who find Clinton’s political correctness on the topic of Islam and jihadism a cause for concern, especially in the aftermath of any future terrorist attacks in the U.S. or Europe.". Chilling words in hindsight given (for a variety of reasons) there was indeed a swing towards Trump and the terrorist attacks that have happened since.

https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/what-hillary-clinton-should-say-about-islam-and-the-war-on-terror

 

 

[qolbinau]

.

[songanddanceman2]

This is Manchesters response in a perfect Mancunian way https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6mxCjDkny0Y

[Dave28282]

Great posts Qolbinau! Very well spoken.

About the part: Muslims are mostly good people in spite of not because of their religion.

The problem here is that people are often indoctrinated and actually think that the religion is their identity. They think it is who they are (to a point of blowing themselves up in this case), and therefore react very confused and often violent to anyone who doubts their religion or gets in the way of that. Because it's like they feel their identity is affected. Kids in school need to learn that identity is not formed by religion in any way, shape or form. It is nothing more than a choice, a sideshow. It by no means defines a person.

Thinking for yourself/free thinking from different sides makes one a better person, laws and schools really need to address this. You can only form an opinion on for example homosexuality if you know what you are talking about and come up with good reasoning and look at it from multiple sides. This goes for any subject in life really. I know a few Muslim gay boys, when their parents found out they were gay they beat the **** out of them, one of them tried to kill himself and the parents of one boy sent him to a psychiatrist. Eventually the psychiatrist called the parents and focused on them. In my opinion those parents never found the truth of life, and are confused and indoctrinated. And in this case, by treating their boys like this, are doing a bad thing. Evil. That they tell themselves that their god is behind them only shows that the religion makes them bad people. Or at least they try to make something else responsible for their evil.

There is really no telling if they would behave more human/less evil without the religion, but at least they would have to come up with actual reasoning then. Instead of brushing away the responsibility.

And yes, this goes for Christians too.

[Mister Matt]

Great posts Qolbinau! Very well spoken.

LOL  No, not really.  You both talk down to everyone, but make only the most obvious statements claiming they are somehow revelatory.  I'm glad you havew each other to high-five.  Neither of you are actually making a case for anything that everyone doesn't already understand.  Yes, religion can lead to extremism and extremism can lead to terrorism.  Nobody is denying that because it's been going on for THOUSANDS of years.  

I agree that something has to be done about this religious extremism, but abolishing religion is not a reality.  The advancement of technology and global communication is what really led to the increase in frequency of these terrorist attacks.  I'm surprised nobody has focused on that.

The problem here is that people are often indoctrinated and actually think that the religion is their identity.

This again?  People think their non-religion is their identity.  And their wealth is their identity.  And their IQ is their identity,  They also become rapists and murderers and serial killers.  The problem here is that you think you have the key to unlocking the mystery of terrorism.  There is more than one lock.  The problem here is that there are problems here, not just one.  

Imagine a world without religious idealogies intercepting government policy across the world.

Never. Gonna. Happen.  Well, maybe after a nuclear war wipes out 99% of human life on the planet and the human race has to start over again.  Which is a far more realistic possibility with US Republicans in control and Trumpolean leading the troops.

There is really no telling if they would behave more human/less evil without the religion, but at least they would have to come up with actual reasoning then. Instead of brushing away the responsibility.

Way to negate yourself and shoulder your argument on a supposition.  You want religious people to become secular because when secular people are evil and heinous, it's for the RIGHT reasons.  

[Pootie2]

Agreed exactly with these points:

 

ErikJ972 said: "The attacker was born and raised in Britain. Most of these attacks have been carried out by home grown terrorists.

Instead of attacking Islam I think a better approach would be to stop and figure out what is making these young men feel so disenfranchised they strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent people.

"

SNAFU said: "
How many times have I argued this point over the past few years? We have to find what the trigger is that causes these young kids (most of them are in their 20's) to become radicalized. From what I have been told (I have not witnessed it myself) The Muslim community in Europe is treated differently then they are here. Well, that is until 9/11 and the recent courting of the Xeno and Islamiphobes by the *Trump campaign. Until we fully understand that, we will never be able to really fight terrorism. You can't put boots to ground to fight an ideology.

"

(*And Brexit people.) While I'd prefer, as some others do, to exterminate religious indoctrination entirely from humanity, that obviously won't happen. So instead we have to ask, why did such a person choose to go down this fork in the road? What happened? How are these people recruited? Investigating this path is the most practical and effective course we have before us for long-term solutions. There needs to be better social infrastructure to help people who are feeling disenfranchised (and let's not cut mental health support programs/insurance coverage, seriously), and culture needs to catch up in not alienating entire populations within our own borders.

 

songanddanceman2 said: " Indeed, but they won't win here, not today, not any other day. Seeing every religion, atheists, gays, straight, trans all out today in memory is something they can't break. That's why that has to remain the most important thing. We have Muslims handing out free food, sikhs handing out free drinks, trans and gays hugging builders and big butch blokes, kids of all colours holding hands. Sometimes that is the answer."

[qolbinau]

Mister Matt, what do you mean "nobody is denying that"? It's exactly what many in this thread - and around the world - continue to deny (a relationship between religious beliefs and terrorist actions). I appreciate that you can at least acknowledge it so that we can talk about the next steps. In terms of eradicating religion, yes this is a long-term radical idea. If you want to put it in the 'too hard basket', fine. But there are several policies and attitudes that could be communicated in societies right now to help this agenda, such as (and we are well on our road to many of these):

* Acknowledging the reality of the role of religious beliefs on negative behaviours, attitudes and public policy (the victims are often people in minority groups, such as gay people and women).

* Discouraging the indoctrination of Children to hold religious beliefs and identifies (as Dave pointed out this is a major, major issue). Why do we assume that it is ok for there to be such thing as a "Muslim child" or a "Christian child" - have you ever heard of a Marxist child? Or a Socialist child? It's just bizarre.

* Removing public funding to religious organisations, schools etc. and removing tax breaks for religious organisations

* Acknowledging that not all religions are equal and 'sacred'. Different religious beliefs have more intellectual or moral merit than others - different religious beliefs cause different outcomes. To put all religions in the same basket to be equal and protected as we so often do is absurd

* Introduce compulsory critical thinking classes in schools - teach people the structure of an argument the characteristics of good and bad argumentation. The main goal is teaching people how to think not what to think.

* Introduce compulsory wide religious education in schools - all children should learn about all different kinds of religions and religious beliefs without bias or spin. In an objective historical way

* Ensure Science classes are taught accurately and are compulsory in all schools, particularly biology

* Make sure all ideas, including religious ideas, can be challenged openly and discussed openly without accusing people of being racist, bigoted, 'stupid' (this is the most hilarious idea) or subject to violence

Given we aren't still praying to the greek gods, I'm pretty confident that there will be a time where religious beliefs will become a fringe of society. We will never, ever get there though if people don't speak openly and critically about religion.

[A Director]

qolbinau -  SHUT THE F**K UP!

[qolbinau]

You are welcome to not participate in this thread or use the block button. l know these ideas are unpopular. 

Perhaps someone can pray to god I'll stop. That'll solve it.

[Dave28282]

Mister Matt said: " Yes, religion can lead to extremism and extremism can lead to terrorism.  Nobody is denying that because it's been going on for THOUSANDS of years.  

The problem here is that people are often indoctrinated and actually think that the religion is their identity.

This again?  People think their non-religion is their identity. "

 

You make one mistake in thinking here. Yes, there are bad people everywhere. The problem we are talking about here, is that in this case, people blame their religion for their actions. They hide behind it. That is avoiding human responsibility and never understanding what is right or wrong. If this is not properly taught to the youth, you create dangerous individuals.

A religion presents facts per definition. Non-religion presents nothing. Which forces people to think from both sides and then learn that nothing is written in stone.

 

[Dave28282]

qolbinau said: "Mister Matt, what do you mean "nobody is denying that"? It's exactly what many in this thread - and around the world - continue to deny (a relationship between religious beliefs and terrorist actions). I appreciate that you can at least acknowledge it so that we can talk about the next steps. In terms of eradicating religion, yes this is a long-term radical idea. If you want to put it in the 'too hard basket', fine. But there are several policies and attitudes that could be communicated in societies right now to help this agenda, such as (and we are well on our road to many of these):

* Acknowledging the reality of the role of religious beliefs on negative behaviours, attitudes and public policy (the victims are often people in minority groups, such as gay people and women).

* Discouraging the indoctrination of Children to hold religious beliefs and identifies (as Dave pointed out this is a major, major issue). Why do we assume that it is ok for there to be such thing as a "Muslim child" or a "Christian child" - have you ever heard of a Marxist child? Or a Socialist child? It's just bizarre.

* Removing public funding to religious organisations, schools etc. and removing tax breaks for religious organisations

* Acknowledging that not all religions are equal and 'sacred'. Different religious beliefs have more intellectual or moral merit than others - different religious beliefs cause different outcomes. To put all religions in the same basket to be equal and protected as we so often do is absurd

* Introduce compulsory critical thinking classes in schools - teach people the structure of an argument the characteristics of good and bad argumentation. The main goal is teaching people how to think not what to think.

* Introduce compulsory wide religious education in schools - all children should learn about all different kinds of religions and religious beliefs without bias or spin. In an objective historical way

* Ensure Science classes are taught accurately and are compulsory in all schools, particularly biology

* Make sure all ideas, including religious ideas, can be challenged openly and discussed openly without accusing people of being racist, bigoted, 'stupid' (this is the most hilarious idea) or subject to violence

Given we aren't still praying to the greek gods, I'm pretty confident that there will be a time where religious beliefs will become a fringe of society. We will never, ever get there though if people don't speak openly and critically about religion.

 

"

This post. MUST be read by all the leaders, politicians and citizens in the world.

These are very valuable tips and solutions. The children are the future.

I believe that many people are too confused or scared to understand what you write, but I think it is a wonderful beginning. 

I can't imagine anyone in their right mind could argue with this. Raise a child in a way where he/she learns to look at things from all sides, be reasonable, not judgmental, learns how to think critically, not what to think, forms an opinion on various matters by life experience, not by religion, should learn about all the religions out there, compare and acknowledge the good and the bad sides and influences, challenge eachother openly, etc. 

Solutions are key.

[Dave28282]

A Director said: "qolbinau -  SHUT THE F**K UP! "

Watch your mouth, you rude person.

Why are you distressed when confronted with reason?

And if you don't have anything to add, stay silent.

Thank you.

 

 

[mar6411]

qolbinau and Dave19 - a match made in heaven.  Self indulgent, self righteous word salad lecturing with the self satisfied knowledge that they are always right and everyone else is wrong.  Gotta love it when two such pontificators find each other.

I'll let Mister Matt, SNAFU, madbrian and others that are more eloquent than I put forth reasoned responses to these two.  

Carry on.

[qolbinau]

I am incredibly pretentious and arrogant - and I love it.  I sleep easy feeling truly grateful that I have been blessed with the reasoning skills and education to set me free from the imprisonment of my religious, Christian upbringing. I only hope that the rest of the world will follow. The gods of my new polytheistic religion are Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. 

I concede that my vision for this world will be very difficult to achieve, a vision that the Beatles wrote about decades and decades ago in "Imagine" 

But if others don't at least share my vision, well so be it. 

[PalJoey]

 

You vastly overestimate your reasoning skills.

 

[qolbinau]

I don't think I am PalJoey because my arguments are shared by the intellectual atheist elites of this world. Of course, I absolutely have an assumption that this belief system - of atheism and scientific thinking -  represents the pinnacle of how humans think about religion and the truth. If others can't grant this assumption to me then I can see why you would see my thinking as very flawed indeed. 

[Dave28282]

Nothing flawed about a well formed, evolved mind, who has compared and learned about all religions,the good and bad sides,  and all sides of life and understands reason.

If you are against children evolving like this, you are a part of the problem (Mar and Joey).

Why can't these things be openly challenged? What is your problem?

[kdogg36]

qolbinau has pointed out that we could have predicted with great confidence that the person responsible for the Manchester bombing was a Muslim extremist. Well, there's something else that I can predict with 100 percent confidence: the victims of the next Western drone attack - which will probably be later today, and won't make the news - will be Muslims.

For those who have wondered why young Muslims become radicalized, I'd start with this fact.

Western governments have been killing Muslims, in a most cowardly fashion, almost every day for many years. I can't really blame Muslims living under those governments for becoming angry, or even for becoming radicals. What I can condemn them for is targeting kids going to a concert; this is murder, pure and simple, and also very cowardly.

If radical Muslims targeted the individuals responsible for Western carnage in the Middle East, they'd have my sympathy.

[kdogg36]

A Director, mar, and PalJoey: which of qolbinau's bullet points do you think is a bad idea, and why? I could quibble a little as a libertarian, but they basically all seem sound to me.

[Mister Matt]

 The problem we are talking about here, is that in this case, people blame their religion for their actions.

And in other cases, they blame other things.

This post. MUST be read by all the leaders, politicians and citizens in the world.

How about "world peace"?  They should read that, too!  Meanwhile, the real world with actual people will have to find more realistic means of investigation and finding solutions.  Eradicating religion is about as feasible as sending the Care Bears to launch a rainbow attack from their bellies and if you've been paying attention, attempts to do so will lead to more extremism and violence.

You can't "eradicate religion" even if you personally think it's the magic answer for all of mankind (sounds like a religion, no?).  First of all, you're attempting to police thought to conform to your ideology, which is not only immensely hypocritical, it's impossible.  The existence of so many religions, each one claiming to be the correct and true religion, is proof of that.  Further proof is the creation of new religions and cults all the time.  The only proven way to eradicate a single religion is genocide, or extermination.  Because you have to literally exterminate the ability for free thought.

I am incredibly pretentious and arrogant - and I love it.

It's no wonder you want everyone to conform to your ideology.  You are a narcissist, just like most religious extremist and cult leaders.  You don't actually "reason" because you choose to ignore plausibility and human behavior.  You're just a dreamer, substituting a non-religion as your religion.  You might as well be a Scientologist, for all that it matters.

Raise a child in a way where he/she learns to look at things from all sides, be reasonable, not judgmental, learns how to think critically, not what to think, forms an opinion on various matters by life experience, not by religion, should learn about all the religions out there, compare and acknowledge the good and the bad sides and influences, challenge eachother openly, etc. 

Because you don't address the external factors of what is known as "the rest of the world".  How you raise a child can assist in their growth, but it's no guarantee of their choices for their lives.  If so, every child would grow up to lead lives that were entirely predictable by their parents in every way.  You should probably meet some hippie parents/grandparents and find out how their kids turned out.  Do you really believe all children of atheists are atheists, too?  

Nothing flawed about a well formed, evolved mind, who has compared and learned about all religions,the good and bad sides,  and all sides of life and understands reason.

If you are against children evolving like this, you are a part of the problem (Mar and Joey).

Why can't these things be openly challenged? What is your problem?

Oh!  You think that idea is NEW!  That explains it.  Oh sure.  NO FLAWS THERE.  It's never been attempted!  LOL  By golly, why aren't we alerting the press?!?!  People who actually learn about religions won't ever participate in them.  Got it.  I have several friends who are theological academic scholars, writers and professors, who still practice religion, that I should explain this to!  IF ONLY SOMEONE HAD KNOWN THE SECRET TO THE UNIVERSE BEFORE TODAY!  MANKIND IS SAVED Y'ALL!

qolbinau has pointed out that we could have predicted with great confidence that the person responsible for the Manchester bombing was a Muslim extremist. 

qolbinbau has pointed out that he loves that he's pretentious and arrogant.  I don't think there's anything more that needs to be said about qolbinau.

[kdogg36]

Mister Matt said: "qolbinbau has pointed out that he loves that he's pretentious and arrogant.  I don't think there's anything more that needs to be said about qolbinau."

You know, the post you refer to really wasn't about qolbinau. :)

[Mister Matt]

You know, the post you refer to really wasn't about qolbinau.

Then it is most about him than he intended because it's not inaccurate.  But if I missed another reference, I really don't care that much.

[Kad]

Removing religion will not remove monstrous ideology; it will simply cause people to find another way to justify it. 

[MoveOnGypsy]

Kad said: "Removing religion will not remove monstrous ideology; it will simply cause people to find another way to justify it. "

THIS. Humans will always find a way to justify hatred of "others" and creating systems of oppression and hierarchy. For me, I have found specific educational opportunities work best for deconstructing these ideological concepts.

 

[Jane2]

My opinion is that mental illness will always be with us. Perhaps one day we will have enough information about the brain and how it works but until then, there's no way to stop it. Medication helps some people - that is if they actually take it, but there's a huge number of mentally ill who refuse to take medication.

For those who believe a person doesn't have to be mentally ill to commit these acts -well, being angry enough will suffice.