Bernie should have been the nominee

[javero]

"I've never thought of not voting, but if the US made it mandatory, I might well choose not to vote as an act of civil disobedience."

I'd only go along with mandatory voting if conscription in the US were re-instated with no exemption for able-bodied individuals, including conscientious objection, citizenship, gender, and age.  I abhor the thought of being compelled to vote or enlist in the armed forces at this point in my life.  Old men need to stop treating disadvantaged young adults, and teenagers in some cases, as expendable and mindless.  I'm not ordinarily ageist, but Trump, Gingrich, and Giuliani have combined ages of 215.

[Petralicious]

Interesting  from Bernie Sanders. 

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders says it was "an embarrassment" that millions of white working-class voters decided to back Republican Donald Trump in Tuesday's presidential election.

Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media," Sanders said. "People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids -- all while the very rich become much richer."

http://www.mynbc5.com/article/bernie-sanders-says-donald-trump-votes-were-an-embarrassment/8264596

[Jay Lerner-Z]

I don't necessarily agree with mandatory voting, but I was just putting it out there as a counterpoint to the low turnout. 

[javero]

I admire Bernie but can't believe that he thinks he's doing Dems any favors by shaming voters who supported Trump.  It was their choice.  It all goes back to some sage advice my dad gave me when I was a kid...you can't kick someone's azz just because you don't like them.

Trump flipped 5 counties in eastern NC alone that were carried by Obama in both cycles.  The Dems have lost the south and the GOP is inching towards its historic high of 34 governorships.  My Libertarians are still being laughed at but that's another subject altogether.

Is there anything other than war that could unite the US?

[kdogg36]

Jay Lerner-Z said: "I don't necessarily agree with mandatory voting, but I was just putting it out there as a counterpoint to the low turnout."

I know! You were just throwing out some hypotheticals.

 

[kdogg36]

Petralicious, I've posted Sanders' full statement below, because I want to point out that he somehow manages to demonize foreign workers and condemn Trump's xenophobia in one short post. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

---------------

Donald Trump tapped into the anger of a declining middle class that is sick and tired of establishment economics, establishment politics and the establishment media. People are tired of working longer hours for lower wages, of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries, of billionaires not paying any federal income taxes and of not being able to afford a college education for their kids - all while the very rich become much richer.

To the degree that Mr. Trump is serious about pursuing policies that improve the lives of working families in this country, I and other progressives are prepared to work with him. To the degree that he pursues racist, sexist, xenophobic and anti-environment policies, we will vigorously oppose him.

[qolbinau]

Is Sanders really demonising foreign workers? To me, language that would suggest that would be things like "tired of jobs going to those scummy asian slaves" or something similar. When all he says is "People are tired of seeing decent paying jobs go to China and other low-wage countries", Is he just pointing out an unfortunate reality that many jobs are being sent overseas? His issue is with the system that caused this not with the individual foreign workers.

[kdogg36]

"Demonizing" might be in the eye of the beholder, but he's certainly subtly invoking an "us-against-them" situation with regard to workers outside of America.

[qolbinau]

Yes perhaps. He is prioritizing American interests over others.

Passionate video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs

[javero]

qolbinau,

That video was a little over the top.  Also, Sanders did NOT win his adopted party's nomination so at some point incessantly lamenting in the form of woulda, coulda, shoulda slips into sour-grapes territory.  It certainly isn't winning anyone over to your side no matter how much you beat us over the head with the message.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

He's not necessarily prioritizing American interests over others - I imagine he knows perfectly well that foreign workers are exploited to a shameful degree and that is not in their interest. He's demonizing corporate big business is all.

[qolbinau]

It does make me wonder if this world could ever work without exploiting low-Labour in foreign countries. We'd need to be willing to pay more for our iPhones, cars, computers etc. and organisations would need to be less greedy in their profits (Apple are sitting on billions of dollars they don't know how to spend. It would be nice if that money went to the families of the foreign workers and (if manufacturing were local) the families of workers in Western countries too. It does seem like in some cases there is actually enough money to go around. 

 

(I realise Apple has some token manufacturing of one of their niche computers, the Mac Pro, in the USA. If I recall). 

 

[javero]

"We'd need to be willing to pay more for our iPhones, cars, computers etc. and organisations would need to be less greedy in their profits (Apple are sitting on billions of dollars they don't know how to spend."

It would also be nice if the manufacturers of those items would abandon the insidious practice of planned obsolescence.  Instead, they crank out shoddy goods with nanosecond warranties.  I guess someone has to keep recyclers afloat since many claim that they couldn't break even otherwise.  What is considered ruggedized these days was simply considered the result of good craftsmanship in the not so distant past.  And much commercial software is full of bloat that forces consumers to constantly upgrade to more shabby hardware with the latest Intel processor.  It's almost a criminal racket.

[SmoothLover]

I do not think he would have won. I think in a weird way people (his base) connected to Trump because he was so plain spoken who got rich. I of course interpreted that as someone who did not pay attention in English class who got a let up with his father but his base obviously felt differently.

I wonder if Hillary regrets aligning herself with the president.

It seemed like the Access Hollywood tape was such a gift and gave her permission to be more of a feminist but again that did not propel her forward.

I do think we will see a woman VP before we see a woman President. American moves so slowly when it comes with change.

[qolbinau]

Fascinatingly, someone actually commissioned a poll just before the election to try and answer this very question. The results showed that Trump and Clinton were so close that they are within the margin of error (i.e., the poll was consistent with the actual outcome). However, Sanders was a shocking 12 points ahead. This lead would have probably been inflated given Trump didn't get an opportunity to do his worst on Sanders, such as maybe running a TV a claiming that Sanders was a 'communist' (Trump implied during the primary that Sanders was a communist haha). But if this poll is accurate, it means the only real question of whether Sanders would have got in is whether he could have survived the vetting. I'd be surprised if he had many skeletons in his closet though - otherwise surely they would have come out during the primary?

I understand and respect the point that it doesn't really matter anymore because nothing can be done (and I particularly related to the comment about say Hillary vs Obama in 2008 - to look back at it seems kind of silly [though maybe not as Silly if Obama didn't get in]). 

But if anyone does happen to care about the truth of this matter, it's hard to ignore that electing Hillary as the nominee could have cost the democrats the White House.

There is perhaps something to learn though - as Bernie has made a few comments about recently. And that is reformation of the Democratic party and future candidates so this doesn't happen again. 

 

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/Gravis_Sanders_Election_Poll.pdf

[Jay Lerner-Z]

That's not fascinating. With all the election fatigue at that stage, of course he'd do well. It's really not worth sh!t. Why do you never consider the knock-on effects of a Sanders nomination? With Bernie on the hard left, Trump on the hard right - would centrist Mike Bloomberg then have decided to run? He seriously considered it. Take your own advice and "move on" - if you have any productive tips on how to actually deal with real-life, let us know.

[qolbinau]

I agree that particular variable was not accounted for - interesting thought. But it's funny that we now have data both during the primary and just before the election - plus clear theoretical reasons (not involved in criminal scandals; didn't hide Wall Street speeches; didn't get debate questions ahead of time; hasn't flip flopped on every major issue etc etc). Yet it never seems to be good enough to concede that maybe, just maybe, Hillary was the wrong choice  

But re: continuing the discussion or not, I understand you and some others don't care, so I definitely invite you to not participate if you don't want to. I accept that the demographic of this forum is not like the thousands of people on facebook that upvote posts telling him he would have won. It is very clear at this stage though what the discussion is about (whether Sanders would have won) - and no one is forcing anyone down to read or respond to this topic haha. 
 

[YouWantitWhen????]

The poll does not factor in the opposition research the GOP had at the ready to savage Sanders.  His child out of wedlock, his Socialism, his supposed praise of Castro, his Jewishness, issues with his wife while she was at  Burlington College... all of it would be used to destroy him and his wife.  Any poll is useless because it does not factor in the attacks that would have been launched on Sanders. 

[qolbinau]

Thank you those are some good points. I can see how many of those would be particularly strong ammunition (particularly I can imagine Trump using a line of reasoning that Sanders would tank the economy, he is a socialist (or he might claim communist), look at what his wife did at Burlington College etc. 

[YouWantitWhen????]

And I guess you did not realize that even against Clinton there was a lot of blatant anti-semitism in ads and media play that has stirred up a lot of hate here.  Swastikas are appearing on storefronts and in colleges. People on twitter are being threatened with being sent to the gas chamber.  The Alt-Right here in the US hates Jews, and the Alt Right was running Trump's campaign.  Trump's final salvo against Clinton involved her dealing with those shady global bankers - use code and words straight from Nazi propaganda.  The architect of the Trump campaign is a known anti-semite.  In parts of this country, there has always been a strong current of anti-semitism - and Trump's campaign mined that regarding Clinton's speeches to the banks. He would not be so subtle against Sanders.  

[fflagg]

Bull****. A fake politician uses the political process to seduce gullible people to believe his empty ideas. Trump AND Sanders. 

Bernie is a fake democrat who got millions of snotty millennials to buy his crap. 

Will you also buy his new book?

 

[Theater_Nerd]

The election of Donald Trump has given this nation's racist population the sense that they can now be freely racist without any repercussions because their president-to-be feels the same way. 

It is alarming at the number of racially motivated attacks that have taken place since last Tuesday,

Here in New York several dorm rooms at The New School in lower Manhattan were spray painted with swastikas. One dorm housed three Jewish students and one Latina.

The irony here is that the New School was founded in 1933 as the University in Exile for students that had escaped the horrors of Nazi Germany.

Unbelievable! 

 

[South Florida]

fflagg said, "Bernie is a fake democrat who got millions of snotty millennials to buy his crap."

fflagg, you are a total idiot, and qolbinau this thread makes me sick to my stomach, please everyone stop with this, it's a moot subject, the thread title makes me want to fly to Australia just to slap the OP in the face.

[South Florida]

kdogg36 you seem like a nice guy but this, "Many people on this thread are behaving terribly, and owe the OP an apology.", is laughable.  The OP started this thread the second it was becoming official.  As one of the most ardent Sanders supporters on these boards I find the I told you so attitude of the OP, when the wounds were so fresh, utterly childlike.  THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING SANDERS WOULD HAVE DONE BETTER, SO PLEASE STOP!

[javero]

I get why Bernie would recommend Rep Keith Ellison to chair the DNC but think the Dems should BEG David Axelrod to take the helm.  Both Ellison and former Chair Howard Dean bring much to the table but Axelrod will help keep the coffers full and learned how to speak Rust Belt years ago.

ETA: Nearly forgot.  Why is Debbie Wasserman-Schultz getting a pass?  She was abominable long before the public public got wind of her tilting the nomination in Hillary's favor.  And Donna Brazile is a re-tread from way back.  The woman has worked on the unsuccessful campaigns of Dick Gephardt, Jesse Jackson, Walter Mondale and Al Gore if that tell's you anything.  Heck, even the huckster Michael Moore would be a better choice as DNC Chair than DWS or DB.  Full disclosure: Ms Brazile and I are long-time acquaintances and she is one of the reasons I left the party a decade ago.

[Petralicious]

So Trump hires horrible Bannon. And if DNC hires Ellison, an admirer of Farrakhan and CAIR it is open season on Jewish People