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Critical failure, commercial success?

Critical failure, commercial success?

kristinj1 Profile Photo
kristinj1
#1Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 1:01pm

Just encountered this old article, and wondered if there are current examples of shows (for example the article mentions Wicked and Cats) that were not universally adored by critics, yet attain commercial success.   If so, do you think there are particular types of shows that leave critics cold but that audiences warm to?

http://www.newyork.com/articles/broadway/10-broadway-shows-critics-got-dead-wrong-56152/

 

 

Updated On: 10/10/16 at 01:01 PM

Call_me_jorge Profile Photo
Call_me_jorge
#2Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 1:09pm

Does finding Neverland count? It didn't recoup, but it lasted longer than many critically successes. 

I'm really having a hard time thinking of others.


In our millions, in our billions, we are most powerful when we stand together. TW4C unwaveringly joins the worldwide masses, for we know our liberation is inseparably bound. Signed, Theater Workers for a Ceasefire https://theaterworkersforaceasefire.com/statement

Jeffrey Karasarides Profile Photo
Jeffrey Karasarides
#3Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 1:39pm

Aida, Beauty & the Beast, The Color Purple, Mary Poppins, Memphis, and Motown.

kristinj1 Profile Photo
kristinj1
#4Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 1:48pm

Interesting.  Thanks! 
 
Was Aladdin favorably reviewed in NYC?  As I recall, reviews were meh for the out-of-town tryout, but maybe the show was significantly changed before it reached Broadway.

At least based on word-of-mouth the War Paint buzz in Chicago was lackluster, yet it apparently was a commercial success for The Goodman, presumably due to the box-office draw of two amazingly talented divas.

Are many prominent critics 30-year-old moms of youngish children, people of color or stockbrokers, or do they still tend to be a fairly homogeneous demographic? 
 

Updated On: 10/10/16 at 01:48 PM

Auggie27 Profile Photo
Auggie27
#5Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 1:55pm

Actually, go back to the original EVITA.  I moved to NYC that week, and I can tell you: the reviews are ghastly, including two total pans in the NY Times, the second in the Sunday by Kerr Ms. LuPone was not beloved either, though the subsequent mythology around her performance negates that. (She won the Tony, yes; but many people swear only by a hair; Sandy Duncan's Peter Pan was adored that season, and many rooted for her to win -- among the voters.) 


"I'm a comedian, but in my spare time, things bother me." Garry Shandling

GreasedLightning Profile Photo
GreasedLightning
#6Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:17pm

Wicked???

BroadwayConcierge Profile Photo
BroadwayConcierge
#7Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:21pm

Neverland flopped. Sorry, Jorge. 

gypsy101 Profile Photo
gypsy101
#8Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:22pm

was Cats ever critically acclaimed?

also i recall reviews for Les Miz being not great when it opened in the 80's


"Contentment, it seems, simply happens. It appears accompanied by no bravos and no tears."

Jeffrey Karasarides Profile Photo
Jeffrey Karasarides
#9Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:24pm

"Was Aladdin favorably reviewed in NYC?  As I recall, reviews were meh for the out-of-town tryout, but maybe the show was significantly changed before it reached Broadway."

It was indeed. After the reviews came out from its out-of-town tryout in Toronto, the creative team kept working on the show nonstop until opening night on Broadway.

kristinj1 Profile Photo
kristinj1
#10Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:38pm

GreasedLightning said: "Wicked???"

Regarding Wicked, according to the article linked in the OP, Charles Isherwood of Variety quipped he was more “bothered than bewitched.” Newsday pronounced it an “overproduced, overblown, confusingly dark, and laboriously ambitious jumble.” The Daily News dismissed it as “an interminable show with no dramatic logic or emotional center.”

Does it seem like a general trend that critics seem more apt to miss the commercial potential for shows intended to appeal to families, or is it that critics don't concern themselves with commercial potential but only with perceived quality?

Updated On: 10/10/16 at 02:38 PM

Sunny11
#11Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:40pm

BroadwayConcierge said: "Neverland flopped. Sorry, Jorge. 

 

"

It ran for 17 months on Broadway ! How can that be called flop? It had an audience 

IdinaBellFoster Profile Photo
IdinaBellFoster
#12Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:44pm

Sunny11 said: "BroadwayConcierge said: "Neverland flopped. Sorry, Jorge. "

It ran for 17 months on Broadway ! How can that be called flop? It had an audience"

 

It didn't make it's investment back. It's a flop.


"Oh look at the time, three more intelligent plays just closed and THE ADDAMS FAMILY made another million dollars" -Jackie Hoffman, Broadway.com Audience Awards

kristinj1 Profile Photo
kristinj1
#13Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 2:54pm

gypsy101 said: "was Cats ever critically acclaimed?"

Here's some of what the article said about Cats... "While all acknowledged John Napier’s dazzling set design transforming the Winter Garden Theatre into a feline-skewed junkyard, many found Webber’s score, with the possible exception of the soaring “Memory,” less than memorable. The Daily News said it “makes for a strained and eventually wearying evening.” "

Updated On: 10/10/16 at 02:54 PM

Alex Kulak2
#14Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 3:01pm

From what I've heard, the reason Cats ran so long was foreign tourists. If you were vacationing to New York and didn't speak English, would you want to see a show like Falsettos, where you have to understand the libretto to know what's going on, or a show like Cats, which is pretty much just a ballet with poetry being read over the score?

Updated On: 10/10/16 at 03:01 PM

Liza's Headband
#15Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 3:13pm

Sunny11 said: "BroadwayConcierge said: "Neverland flopped. Sorry, Jorge. 

 

"

It ran for 17 months on Broadway ! How can that be called flop? It had an audience 
"

 

Any show that is unable to recoup is a flop by definition since it is a 'losing' venture (i.e. not paid back its investors by failing to net its capitalization amount). A flop is a commercial failure. It's a pretty straightforward concept unlike critical or artistic failure, which is completely subjective. 

kristinj1 Profile Photo
kristinj1
#16Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 3:15pm

Alex Kulak2 said: "From what I've heard, the reason Cats ran so long was foreign tourists. If you were vacationing to New York and didn't speak English, would you want to see a show like Falsettos, where you have to understand the libretto to know what's going on, or a show like Cats, which is pretty much just a ballet with poetry being read over the score?"

 

Interesting!   Is there an accessible source of information about the demographics of audiences for various shows?  For example, I've  always wondered what % of Broadway audiences fly in for shows versus living within driving distance.  I've also wondered if particular shows that draw more out-of-town crowds are more or less dependent on strong reviews for attracting an audience.

Updated On: 10/10/16 at 03:15 PM

KathyNYC2
#17Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 3:35pm

I understand the definition of a "flop" but I have a hard time with it. If we are just talking money (and maybe that's correct), the the original Ragtine And the original She Loves Me were terrible flops. That's just wrong somehow. 

Liza's Headband
#18Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 3:46pm

If you want to know what was a critical failure but commercial success, you have only two frames of reference. The first parameter is easy even if you object to the views being espoused: published reviews by legitimate theatre or arts/entertainment critics.  The second parameter, however, is even easier if you stick with the golden rule and widely-accepted definition of a flop: the recoupment of a production's initial investment. If not that, how do you suppose we measure commercial success?

kristinj1 Profile Photo
kristinj1
#19Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 3:56pm

This may be slightly off topic, but are there shows that are initially a commercial flop on Broadway, but eventually recoup via regional and/or community theatre licensing or through a subsequent Broadway revival?

It does seem that certain shows are best suited to the flyover market (maybe due to a lack of sophistication or subject matter that doesn't resonate as well in NYC), yet they gain valuable street cred by running even very briefly on Broadway.

 

Updated On: 10/10/16 at 03:56 PM

Liza's Headband
#20Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 4:03pm

Yes, there are plenty of shows that have eventually recouped through licensing and/or touring. Those "returns" are rarely, if ever, publicly announced though. We can only make educated guesses about this. We cannot assume an official announcement will be released like it does for Broadway. 

Sunny11
#21Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 4:04pm

Finding Neverland ran for slightly longer than Fun Home did ( 646 to 609 performances including previews ). The latter is considered a hit because it recouped but the former didn't, that just doesn't "feel" right since they both attracted a commercially viable  level  of audience for about the same time. FN would have had higher weekly running costs from a bigger cast, the use of two real dogs , special effects etc. 

gypsy101 Profile Photo
gypsy101
#22Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 4:06pm

the fact remains that one is a flop, plus one was a critical darling and also a terrific show.


"Contentment, it seems, simply happens. It appears accompanied by no bravos and no tears."

skies Profile Photo
skies
#23Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 4:11pm

Was "Jersey Boys " a critical hit?  "Mama Mia"?  


"when I’m on stage I see the abyss and have to overcome it by telling myself it’s only a play." - Helen Mirren

Alex Kulak2
#24Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 4:15pm

kristinj1 said: "Interesting!   Is there an accessible source of information about the demographics of audiences for various shows?  For example, I've  always wondered what % of Broadway audiences fly in for shows versus living within driving distance.  I've also wondered if particular shows that draw more out-of-town crowds are more or less dependent on strong reviews for attracting an audience."

According to the Broadway League, in the 2014-15 season, of the 13.1 million admissions to Broadway shows, 18% were people from outside the United States. working out to about 2.36 million theatregoers. Who's to say those numbers were similar in the eighties or nineties, but if it were, in one year that would be enough people to sell out every performance of Cats that year almost 4 times over.

Mister Matt Profile Photo
Mister Matt
#25Critical failure, commercial success?
Posted: 10/10/16 at 4:16pm

Jersey Boys received the best reviews of its season (pretty much universal raves).  And Mamma Mia was well-liked among critics, even though they admitted it was fluff.


"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian